Q. There are many meditators who have practiced for quite a while, but almost no one reports reaching the "thought-free" state that you have. Few contemporary teachers even regard statements in the classical texts about "no thoughts" as literal. Why don't more meditators reach the "thought-free" state?
G. This question arose in my recent interview around the statement from Harada Roshi, a famous Japanese Zen master, "Enlightenment is capable of endless enlargement"; it has been asked by many others.
One of the most important limitations is not knowing that a state of "no thoughts" is possible, desirable, or useful. Having few thoughts is not something described cryptically in obscure texts of one small sect. The state of "no thoughts" has been described by many leading spiritual figures in many different traditions:
Nisargadatta Maharaj:
"To be free from thoughts is itself meditation."
"You have fragmented yourself, which is why thoughts harass you."
"To remain without thought in the waking state is the greatest worship."
Ramana Maharshi:
"In samadhi, there is only the feeling 'I am' and no thoughts.
"See to whom the trouble is. It is to the 'I-thought'. Hold it. Then the other thoughts vanish."
"When these thoughts are dispelled, you remain in the state of meditation, free from thoughts."
"The limited and multifarious thoughts having disappeared, there shines in the Heart a kind of wordless illumination of 'I-I', which is pure consciousness."
Dogen Zenji, 13th century Japanese Zen Buddhist founder of Soto Zen:
"Be without thoughts, this is the secret of meditation."
Patanjali's Yoga Sutras, fundamental text of yoga, about 2nd century BCE:
"Yoga happens when there is stilling of the movement of thought in the indivisible intelligence in which there is no movement."
The Bhagavad Gita, VI, 25 :
"With the intellect steadfast and the mind sunk in the Self, allow no thought to arise."
Bhante Gunaratana (contemporary):
"Once your mind is free from thought, it becomes clearly wakeful and at rest in an utterly simple awareness. This awareness cannot be described adequately."
Dzogchen Master Chokyi Nyima Rinpoche (contemporary):
"Meditation training...is a way of being free from clinging and the conceptual attitude of forming thoughts...Thought is samsara. Being free of thought is liberation."
So attaining a "thought-free" state is the goal in many spiritual practices. A second obstacle to more success in obtaining it, is that, for whatever reasons, it is not taught in many contemporary contemplative settings, outside of Zen and Dzogchen.
A typical anecdote was when i met 1/1 with Richard Brown, Co-Chair of the Department of Contemplative Education @ Naropa Institute. As discussed in an earlier blog "Dr. Richard Brown, Naropa Institute", when the "thought-free state" was described, he replied "We don't do that at Naropa. Our work has very different aims."
Similarly, when describing this state to two contemporary Tibetan Buddhist leaders recently, there was no understanding of, or familiarity with, the state, nor was there interest in discussing it. However, they did graciously point me to Dzogchen where just such a state is described.
A third challenge is that there is confusion over what the "thought-free" state is and how it manifests. IME, for well over 90% of the waking state, there is a deep peaceful stillness/awareness/presence with no discernible self-talk, whether "tasking" or not. There is no apparent effort of suppression, no practice being "done", no intense watcher; it is the "natural"/default state.
When it is necessary to use "self-talk" to plan, frame problems or decisions, read, etc. "thoughts" may be critical tools. Interestingly, problem solving and planning are unhindered, in fact enhanced, w/o the typical "bandwidth-gobbling" narrative as interference. These "planning thoughts" are, however, different from the "blah, blah" of self-reflective narrative as they have no "emotional content w/I, me, my".
Virtually all human languages have a "subject/doing/object" structure. IME, the brain is able to recognize, and discriminate between problem solving or planning "thoughts" and self-reflective, narrative, emotionally-invested "thoughts".
The Brewer, et. al. work described in the blogpost "Folk Who Meditate Decrease Mind Wandering", found a watch-and-control network which apparently presides over the "selfing" network to ensure that self-referential thought does not arise. It also appears, and this is just speculation, that this network discriminates between the two types of thoughts described above.
Thoughts are surprisingly dependent on the body's physical condition. Thoughts can arise when the body's blood sugar is low or when it is very tired, or first thing in the morning in what appears to be short-term memory consolidation. The brain basically asks "Do you want to keep this?" (The brain doesn't really say that, but you know what i mean.) As there is no one there to take the package, it gets taken away by the UPS truck. This early morning period is also when the often astonishing work of the "primary (sub)consciousness" in solving problems is delivered to "secondary consciousness"/conscious awareness for "handling".
There is also the matter of folk not being really engaged with awakening. As this can be an intense process, strong motivation is important to maintain persistence.
Ramana Maharshi described it as having the urgency of someone whose head is held underwater. Others describe it as like having your hair on fire. At our regional zendo at which i sometimes led sitting, there was a painting by one of the regulars of just that - someone with their hair on fire.
There is the pragmatic limitation that folk can't/won't put in the effort, or time, for practice; practice does take practice, that's why they call it practice. i woke up at 4 a.m. for years to do my practice; i had jobs with large responsibilities, two children and much travel - it is possible if it really matters to you.
Another challenge is that ultimately surrender becomes a key element. To be free of the "I", the "thought causer", the "fear monger", one needs to be free of most/all attachments. This is where most folk stop, or get stuck for a long time. It is particularly difficult in the "highly-deterministic/self-made" cultures, where "surrender" is generally avoided at all cost.
you will find, if you persist, that there is something, some relationship, possession, practice, pain, belief, or pleasure, that you will just not let go of. you don't need to spend years hunting for it/them; they are right there when you begin to let go.
There are some Bhagavad Gita verses that provide some insights on how difficult this awakening process can be, but there are also others that say "if you can do this, this and this, many have reached it".
Perhaps, with all of our cognitive neuroscience work and the number of folk investigating new approaches and protocols, and it gaining wider acceptance, it will become much, much easier and wide-spread. Perhaps, it will become possible for many to spend significant amounts of their days w/o endless self-referential "blah, blah, blah". How useful, how productive and how sweet that would be...
G. This question arose in my recent interview around the statement from Harada Roshi, a famous Japanese Zen master, "Enlightenment is capable of endless enlargement"; it has been asked by many others.
![]() |
Nisargadatta Maharaj |
Nisargadatta Maharaj:
"To be free from thoughts is itself meditation."
"You have fragmented yourself, which is why thoughts harass you."
"To remain without thought in the waking state is the greatest worship."
Ramana Maharshi:
"In samadhi, there is only the feeling 'I am' and no thoughts.
"See to whom the trouble is. It is to the 'I-thought'. Hold it. Then the other thoughts vanish."
"When these thoughts are dispelled, you remain in the state of meditation, free from thoughts."
"The limited and multifarious thoughts having disappeared, there shines in the Heart a kind of wordless illumination of 'I-I', which is pure consciousness."
![]() |
Dogen Zenji |
Dogen Zenji, 13th century Japanese Zen Buddhist founder of Soto Zen:
"Be without thoughts, this is the secret of meditation."
Patanjali's Yoga Sutras, fundamental text of yoga, about 2nd century BCE:
"Yoga happens when there is stilling of the movement of thought in the indivisible intelligence in which there is no movement."
The Bhagavad Gita, VI, 25 :
"With the intellect steadfast and the mind sunk in the Self, allow no thought to arise."
![]() |
Bhante Gunaratana |
Bhante Gunaratana (contemporary):
"Once your mind is free from thought, it becomes clearly wakeful and at rest in an utterly simple awareness. This awareness cannot be described adequately."
Dzogchen Master Chokyi Nyima Rinpoche (contemporary):
"Meditation training...is a way of being free from clinging and the conceptual attitude of forming thoughts...Thought is samsara. Being free of thought is liberation."
So attaining a "thought-free" state is the goal in many spiritual practices. A second obstacle to more success in obtaining it, is that, for whatever reasons, it is not taught in many contemporary contemplative settings, outside of Zen and Dzogchen.
A typical anecdote was when i met 1/1 with Richard Brown, Co-Chair of the Department of Contemplative Education @ Naropa Institute. As discussed in an earlier blog "Dr. Richard Brown, Naropa Institute", when the "thought-free state" was described, he replied "We don't do that at Naropa. Our work has very different aims."
Similarly, when describing this state to two contemporary Tibetan Buddhist leaders recently, there was no understanding of, or familiarity with, the state, nor was there interest in discussing it. However, they did graciously point me to Dzogchen where just such a state is described.
A third challenge is that there is confusion over what the "thought-free" state is and how it manifests. IME, for well over 90% of the waking state, there is a deep peaceful stillness/awareness/presence with no discernible self-talk, whether "tasking" or not. There is no apparent effort of suppression, no practice being "done", no intense watcher; it is the "natural"/default state.
When it is necessary to use "self-talk" to plan, frame problems or decisions, read, etc. "thoughts" may be critical tools. Interestingly, problem solving and planning are unhindered, in fact enhanced, w/o the typical "bandwidth-gobbling" narrative as interference. These "planning thoughts" are, however, different from the "blah, blah" of self-reflective narrative as they have no "emotional content w/I, me, my".
Virtually all human languages have a "subject/doing/object" structure. IME, the brain is able to recognize, and discriminate between problem solving or planning "thoughts" and self-reflective, narrative, emotionally-invested "thoughts".
The Brewer, et. al. work described in the blogpost "Folk Who Meditate Decrease Mind Wandering", found a watch-and-control network which apparently presides over the "selfing" network to ensure that self-referential thought does not arise. It also appears, and this is just speculation, that this network discriminates between the two types of thoughts described above.
Thoughts are surprisingly dependent on the body's physical condition. Thoughts can arise when the body's blood sugar is low or when it is very tired, or first thing in the morning in what appears to be short-term memory consolidation. The brain basically asks "Do you want to keep this?" (The brain doesn't really say that, but you know what i mean.) As there is no one there to take the package, it gets taken away by the UPS truck. This early morning period is also when the often astonishing work of the "primary (sub)consciousness" in solving problems is delivered to "secondary consciousness"/conscious awareness for "handling".
There is also the matter of folk not being really engaged with awakening. As this can be an intense process, strong motivation is important to maintain persistence.
![]() |
Ramana Maharshi |
There is the pragmatic limitation that folk can't/won't put in the effort, or time, for practice; practice does take practice, that's why they call it practice. i woke up at 4 a.m. for years to do my practice; i had jobs with large responsibilities, two children and much travel - it is possible if it really matters to you.
Another challenge is that ultimately surrender becomes a key element. To be free of the "I", the "thought causer", the "fear monger", one needs to be free of most/all attachments. This is where most folk stop, or get stuck for a long time. It is particularly difficult in the "highly-deterministic/self-made" cultures, where "surrender" is generally avoided at all cost.
you will find, if you persist, that there is something, some relationship, possession, practice, pain, belief, or pleasure, that you will just not let go of. you don't need to spend years hunting for it/them; they are right there when you begin to let go.
There are some Bhagavad Gita verses that provide some insights on how difficult this awakening process can be, but there are also others that say "if you can do this, this and this, many have reached it".
Perhaps, with all of our cognitive neuroscience work and the number of folk investigating new approaches and protocols, and it gaining wider acceptance, it will become much, much easier and wide-spread. Perhaps, it will become possible for many to spend significant amounts of their days w/o endless self-referential "blah, blah, blah". How useful, how productive and how sweet that would be...
Hi Gary,
ReplyDeleteCould you tell more about the practical side of getting up at 4 am each day? Did it require you to go to bed at 8 pm to get enough sleep?
Probably the hardest part of my practice is combining it with the other areas of my life. I also have a wife, two young daughters and a job. ;)
For the past years formal meditation usually happens in the evening when the kids are asleep. I have tried setting up a morning practice but haven't been able to stick with it yet.
Hi David,
DeleteDon't know why i didn't answer this, but it came to my attention when someone sent in a comment.
i wasn't naturally an "early morning" folk, but as i had 50 to 60 hr/wk jobs and two kids, and did a lot of travel and meeting w/folk in my jobs, i found that the evenings didn't work. As the kids got older, they weren't asleep in the evenings until very late. So i just resolved to do it.
i did find that it was an almost "even" trade of hours of sleep for hours of practice as far as functioning during the day, as long as i got at least 5 hours of sleep. i went to bed at 9:30 or 10, and that has worked for decades, so it has become heavily conditioned at happens "all by itself".
There is something "special" about the early morning, so special that there is even a Sanskrit name for that period. Practice, IME, is much deeper during that time.
Trust this is useful.
stillness
gary
Thanks to both of you for the question and reply. This is something I struggle with, too, with 2 kids and 3 grandkids in the house, a marriage, a fulltime job, and lots of other 'stuff' to fill my waking hours. I would love to say that getting up at 4am or even 5am was a regular thing for me, but it's more like 630am on any given day, and then I'm already late getting into the office.
DeleteFor me, mid- to late-afternoon is the time when I get my meditation done. The kids are playing video games, and the wife is still working on her reports for the day (she works from home). I can usually get in 30-45 minutes. I do find that if I don't get a full 7 hrs of sleep, my meditation the next day turns into a nap.
Weekends I can make up for it with a couple sessions a day, at least 45 minutes in length.
Jeff
Hi Jeff,
DeleteIt is also useful, as you can read in the Dialogues with Dominic blogposts, to put the self-inquiry into your day several times, for just a minute or two. Dominic has a full time job, 3 kids, etc.
This has great "data value" for the brain which then sees the contrast between what was going on in "consciousness" and the stillness that arrives with the self-inquiry question. Every time it sees this, even for a short time, the brain changes, and is never exactly the same again. Putting a reminder app on your smartphone can be a big help.
stillness
gary
Hi Gary
ReplyDeleteTo clarify your point about problematic thinking is when we "feel" we are thinking? And constructive thoughts are the ones that come without struggle but effortlessly from intuition? And is it possible to live and function in this non-analytical state where we don't crave for answers but answers come intuitively and effortlessly?
Hi Anonymous,
DeleteThis is such an FAQ, that i have a video on it, "What 'no thoughts' means...3 different kinds of thoughts" @ https://youtu.be/WnWxCgiZfrc, which has gotten a lot of views. It is also covered in the video "The End of Suffering and the Default Mode Network" @ https://youtu.be/oX1IFUDNtto.
The blogpost "Three Neural Networks Dancing...'blah,blah', tasking and control" @ http://happinessbeyondthought.blogspot.com/2014/07/three-neural-networks-dancing-blah-blah.html goes through the latest cognitive neuroscience on how the brain does this.
Yes, it is absolutely possible to live in that state w/o the "problematic", negative-energy-charged thoughts, which really feel different from the ones we use to do problem solving and planning.
Even if you have the second kind of thoughts, they aren't a problem. The brain can quickly learn the difference from the energy of the thoughts, and apply self-inquiry and the letting go practices described in the blogpost "Letting go of your attachments to awaken...why/how/when" @ http://happinessbeyondthought.blogspot.com/2014/06/letting-go-of-your-attachments-to.html.
Trust this is useful.
stillness
gary
Great post!
ReplyDeleteHi Anonymous,
DeleteGreat that you found it useful.
stillness