Can you stop your "blah, blah" thoughts? What thoughts are useful?

Q1.  ...It is impossible to stop thoughts...Is your "no thoughts" a "forced practice"?  Can it be maintained w/o effort? 

Q2.  (With regard to "no thoughts")...thoughts are...essential to nearly every function we perform...thoughts...before and after any (of my) spiritual achievement...are still as they were...i can make my inner voice as loud as it could be before...nor have i changed much about the way the system operates. 

The notion that one can...do engineering...or even speak and have it not involve thought, is...a conceptual (mis)understanding...intentions fall into the realm of thought...all physical actions are preceded by intentions...the notion that action can occur w/o thought falls into the same camp (conceptual (mis)understanding).

Q3...retreatant...told us that sometimes he had no thoughts for several days. We actually thought it was a bit funny, since this practitioner was animatedly talking about all kinds of things. So we wondered what qualified as "thought" in his view since he was obviously thinking.   

G.  These comments on "having no thoughts", my ongoing "inner" state for 14 years, are from prominent contemporary folk in Tibetan Buddhism, Theravada Buddhism, and meditative self-inquiry.  There is confusion and misunderstanding on what "thoughts" are and when they are useful, and what "no thoughts" means.  

In earlier posts, i addressed some questions on "thought" from another prominent Theravadan in "what are "planning thoughts"?  what are "narrative thoughts"? and "what thoughts are OK and which aren't?.  

Most intellectual haggling on what constitutes "thought" comes from "spiritual" folk who were not able to stop theirs.  Having no thoughts is not a complex or confusing concept in the  traditions in which i practiced.  Reduction/loss in self-referential narrative is regarded as a key indicator of awakening and whether the source of suffering, fear, craving, etc. has been reduced/eliminated.  Some comments:

Ramana Maharshi

       Ramana Maharshi

          "In samadhi there is only the feeling "I am" and no thoughts."

           "There is a state when words cease and silence prevails."

 Patanjali Yoga Sutras (I:2)

          "Yoga is the stilling of the modifications of the mind."

Nisargadatta

     Nisargadatta Maharaj 

        "To be free from thoughts is itself meditation."

 Bhagavad Gita (VI:25)

 "With the intellect steadfast, and the mind sunk in the Self, allow no thought to arise."

Dozen Zenji

Dogen Zenji

"Be without thoughts...this is the secret of meditation."

The questioners are understandably involved and invested in their traditions and i empathize w/them.  After much effort, to discover it is possible to end suffering simply by deconstructing the "I" and thereby end self-referential thoughts, fears and desires by a "direct path", is a shock.  

Broca's area
Where speech arises

re thought being necessary for speaking, what is your own experience?  Watch your speaking carefully...do you prethink everything you say?   Is your talking all "thought up" before you say it?  Do you "think" to speak?  

Speaking and self-referential thinking use different parts of the brain.  Speaking is handled by Broca's area.

Default mode network
Where self-referential narrative arises

Self-referential narrative/thought, as explained in the blogpost, "What is the Default Mode Network?, is generated by the default mode network.  If you watch carefully, your "blah, blah" is all about, and contains, "I, me, mine", explicitly or implicitly; this drives our stress, fears, craving and suffering.  

              

Problem solving, planning, and other "executive" functions   are done in the frontal lobe.  These functions project future consequences, weigh "choices" between options, and  determine similarities/differences between things/events and what is "socially acceptable."  

Complex problem solving and planning does not use the "self-referential, thought-generating" default mode network.  It does, however, employ "non-self-referential thoughts", which are different in "type" and "feel", for framing and receiving the results of complex problem solving.  Self-referential, emotionally-invested thought feels "stickier" w/more "hooks" for grabbing related memories and thoughts.  

Two Distinct Neural Modes of Self-Reference
"blah, blah" - top
"now,  now, now" - bottom

This difference in feeling can be felt if we compare "How do i get to the interstate?" with "How in the *#^%$ do i get to the %$#@ interstate, NOW??!!!".   In the former, the "I" is just how almost all human languages are structured.  In the latter, the "I" is heavily, emotionally-loaded.   The best paper on this is "Attending to the Present: Mindfulness Meditation Reveals Distinct Neural Modes of Self-Reference", by Farb, et al.

Interestingly, the brain can recognize and sort these, naturally, and can develop a network to monitor and suppress the emotional "thoughts" and  allow the planning/problem solving ones to proceed.  This network is described in the blogposts "Folk Who Meditate Decrease Mind Wandering", and "what are "planning thoughts"? what are "narrative thoughts"?".  It requires no "doer" or "practice".  The brain, no surprise, would rather have stillness, "now, now" and order than "blah, blah"; give it enough examples, and it will shift/build the network.

Complex, insightful problem solving is actually done "off line" in primary consciousness.  When answers are found, they are sent through the lateral prefrontal cortex back to secondary consciousness which framed the problem.  you can actually detect that the problem has been solved w/EEG w/100% accuracy, 6 to 8 seconds before "you" know it.   

Excellent papers in 2008 in PLoSOne and the Journal of Cognitive Neuroscience, respectively, demonstrate this: "Deconstructing Insight: EEG Correlates of Insightful Problem Solving" by Simone Sandkuhler and Joydeep Bhattacharya, and "Posterior Beta and Anterior Gamma Oscillations Predict Cognitive Insight" by Bhavin Sheth, Sandkuhler and Bhattacharya. 

Watch carefully yourself when an insightful solution has occurred, and see if the "blah, blah" of secondary consciousness actually solved it, or just talked about it, back and forth, and then took credit for it.  W/o the interference of "blah, blah", planning and problem-solving is actually enhanced w/the increased available bandwidth.

re thoughts and actions, watch carefully and see if your "blah, blah" has anything to do w/what action is actually going on, or if it virtually all takes place "automatically".  we know from the "free will" neuroscience work (You say that we have no "free will"...) that it is initiated by the motor cortex, not by "you".  Do you really have any idea how your hand moves?  What if you had to think every element of what's required in detail?  Would you ever move?

The common experience of rock climbers, martial artists, elite athletes, painters,  sculptors, writers, chess players, etc. is that they have no thoughts when they are "in flow" and at their best.  It is critical that we can stop thoughts and be fully present, and not just when you're rock climbing or sword fighting.  

Other useful blogposts are "What Is A Thought?  Should we stop all sensations and responses" and "how do i count my thoughts? how many do most folk have?".  

So "no thoughts" means basically no "self-referential, blah, blah" problematic thoughts.  Most folk have something like 55,000 thoughts/day; 500 years ago, we had 5,000.  That sounds like something to work on.   Watch your sensations arise, see thoughts about them arise and turn them into emotions, add memories, and more stories, and voila, problems.  

BTW, there is a new website layout @ the same address; www.happiness-beyond-thought.com.  If you have been there before, you may get an "unable to load" or something like that, because your browser cache has some of the old website stored.  Just do a "Shift, refresh" or put it in manually.  Any comments appreciated.