Dear Gary,
Recently, by both scriptural study and introspection, I am beginning to settle on the realization that free will is an illusion. Our thoughts and actions, even this very email, are automated processes without any volition. The only thing that seems to be distinct from these is my own consciousness ("I am" and "I exist"). These rise from within me and manifest without my volition.
I had the good fortune of coming across your blog. The biggest question is, isn't this very process of finding enlightenment a predetermined process? Can I achieve enlightenment or is it more accurate to say that enlightenment happens to me? The idea that the very process of finding enlightenment is subject to the mandates of fate is very disconcerting. Hoping you could shed some light on the above question.
SK
SK
G. Hi SK,
you have seen the blogpost "You say 'we have no free will', and "we're not in control'..." There is very little doubt w/in most of the cognitive neuroscience community that free will is an evolutionarily-derived construct, something that our brains manifested evolutionarily.
i spoke @ the TSC conference in Stockholm and there wasn't even a serious doubt about there not being free will. The main point was whether folk should be told the "truth", or not. i've worked a lot w/the Yale cognitive neuroscience folk and gave a talk to a Yale meditation group and free will came up. i mentioned the Stockholm conference and a Yale faculty member who was there said he was at the conference and agreed.
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| Ramana Maharshi |
Logically, and necessarily, it follows that even "enlightenment" is predetermined. The blogs and the video "Everything is Predetermined; Einstein and Ramana Maharshi on Free Will" showed that Ramana Maharshi was very clear that everything is predetermined, even the smallest things.
On a few occasions Ramana did tell some folk that our only choice was whether to identify with the screen or the movie, but, IMHO even that is not our choice. Whether we will be able to make that distinction is out of our control. Ramana adapted answers to each questioner; i believe this was an example.
On a few occasions Ramana did tell some folk that our only choice was whether to identify with the screen or the movie, but, IMHO even that is not our choice. Whether we will be able to make that distinction is out of our control. Ramana adapted answers to each questioner; i believe this was an example.
That is also my lived experience. i was a highly determined Ph.D. with a lot of success and was certain that i had "done it all myself".
When my self-referential thoughts abruptly stopped, i had 1000 folk working for me, four research labs and a budget of $260MM. i found that everything went along perfectly w/no self-referential thoughts, no apparent "doer" of anything, or anyone who could manifest "free will". There was no logical alternative.
The same is true for my "awakening" process. There were many serendipitous twists and turns, spiritual teachers of many types, many insights, different practices, etc. The big shift occurred unexpectedly, not where, when, or how it was expected. What manifested was beyond anything i could have imagined.
SK. Hi Gary,
4. What would you recommend for me to do at this stage? I'm beginning to develop an intellectual understanding of fate/free will/determinism but I don't feel any more "peaceful". Any tips/recommendations?
I really appreciate that you took the time to respond. Am struggling recently with these questions and it's very reassuring to find someone who can understand. A few of my family and friends understand where I am coming from. It reveals the hold that the illusion of free will has on humanity. Some questions:
1. The debate regarding whether folks should be "told the truth". Did a realization of your lack of volition lead to a more fulfilling/enriching (i.e. happy life)? A friend attests that although he knows free will is an illusion, he chooses to live in it and finds beauty in the very illusion itself. Is that a misguided belief?
2. Why do I have a visceral aversion to the lack of free will? How did the illusion even develop? If we operate in a deterministic framework, how can we comprehend free will? Isn't that analogous to a blind man believing that he has an understanding of color?
3. Enlightenment, in Eastern thought is the realization of an Ultimate Truth. Is the realization that we do not possess free will analogous to the realization/enlightenment of Hinduism/Buddhism/Vedanta? What are similarities and differences? How does the realization fit into the broader frameworks/goals of Eastern thought?
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| Albert Einstein |
...as Einstein said, a comprehension that you're not in control does make you take yourself a little less seriously.
G. Re 1., the big surprise was that realizing there was "no free will" was unlike what was expected which was living in terror and fear. Life is/was blissful, easy. It's a dance rather than a war. i recognized that i wasn't responsible for the world, but that it was doing fine just by "itself" w/o my involvement.
At some level we all know that is the truth, that we aren't in control. we keep failing at "making things happen" as we wanted, and keep feeling insecure and frightened. Once it is realized, you're "off the hook" and relax into the reality you've been arguing with unsuccessfully for so long.
Re 2, we developed this aversion to a lack of free will as we like to believe that we can control things and if we give up our illusion, we will be at the mercy of things which we can't control; we're just afraid.
As to why "free will" developed, it's not clear how it is functionally, evolutionarily adaptive. Perhaps when the world was much, much simpler it seemed like it worked.
Re 3, awakening happened for "me" before, but just before, it became obvious that there was no free will as there was no one to have it. They were roughly simultaneous; once the "I" is seen through, it all just collapses.
As to how it all fits into "Eastern thought", that is a broad topic as it is hardly homogeneous. There is supposedly no word in Sanskrit, the root-tongue of the romance languages, for "free will".
Re 4 on some helpful "questions" to aid in your understanding of the lack of free will and control, ask yourself, when an event happens:
Could i have reasonably expected this to happen as it did?
Was it probabilistically likely?
What else had to happen to everyone involved to make this come about just as it did?
Can i predict all outcomes of this event on everyone involved and everyone they come in contact with in the future?
Did i consciously choose for this to occur as it did?
Could i have reasonably expected this to happen as it did?
Was it probabilistically likely?
What else had to happen to everyone involved to make this come about just as it did?
Can i predict all outcomes of this event on everyone involved and everyone they come in contact with in the future?
Did i consciously choose for this to occur as it did?
Keep these questions active. They will be helpful for disabusing yourself of the illusion. If you see enough examples in "real life", the brain will let go.
KB. Thank you so much! The responses definitely helped.
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| Eckhart Tolle |
Re Point #3, from my understanding, the "awakening", or "realization" depicted by mystics such as
Ramana Maharishi, Meister
Eckhart, and Eckhart
Tolle is a state of unity in which we understand that we are a part of a
Universal Consciousness, and there is a termination of the "I-thought" or ego.
I do believe with increasing certainty, that we
are without control. This is increasingly accepted by my mind. Is this
realization the same as the realization that there is no "I"? Or is the "lack of volition" realization a subset of the
greater awakening? Or is the "lack of volition" understanding
completely independent of the greater awakening?
I have faith that my mind can accept my lack of
volition as a perfectly reasonable way to exist in the world. I will keep
inquiring to coax my brain into accepting the paradigm.
G. A few folk i work w/, get "no free will/no control" almost immediately. Subsequently, they had to be reminded, which was no problem. Some folk still have some work to do for full "awakening", despite significant progress.
Others progressed a great ways w/o even discussing "no free will"; it later became obvious.
IME, if one awakens fully into "no self", it is impossible to assert that "I am in control", and "I have free will", because there is no one to have it or do it. The illusion of "free will" just falls away.
i am introducing it earlier in my work w/folk. It is very useful for deconstructing the "I". Even if folk reject it, it is possible to get most folk to "maybe that's true, at least sometimes". However, even if it is totally rejected, this does weaken its hold, as at some level, it has been considered as being possible. This begins to weaken the associated neural networks.
The "I" already knows that it is not in control. It has been struggling mightily to make everything work out as planned, despite countless failures (and successes) that it had no part in, which it recognizes. The brain ultimately welcomes the new paradigm and life flows freely and easily when the situation is recognized clearly and fully. Being in control was a hopeless task all along.
stillness
"...on a few occasions Ramana did tell some folk that our only choice was whether to identify with the screen or the movie, but, IMHO...that is not our choice...whether we will be able to make that distinction is out of our control."
ReplyDeleteThat was a point that confused me reading some advaita texts, how true self or witness could have free will?, happy to read that. I agree with you, not by experience but it sounds coherent to me.
sir many questions during my last 15 years now some thing able to grasp
ReplyDeletethe other way also a complete surrender can we call
Hi Gary,
ReplyDeleteYou write that 'some folk still have work to do for full awakening'. This sentence leads right into a question that developed for me last night, I'm hoping you can help.
I live full time at a Zen center and work with a koan. This practice has been beyond anything I could have imagined and the time it has lead to silence was better than anything I've experienced. So the question is that last night this brain woke up in the middle of very focused thinking that lead to clear insight as to how this particular personality developed. Throughout this thinking, the koan kept interjecting and kind of protesting all of the thought. This process happened again this morning. My confusion (and it looks like there probably wasn't any choice involved anyway) was whether to let the thinking go where it wanted to or to muscle through it with the koan practice and get back to the silence.
What does this look like to you?
Gale
Hi Gale,
DeleteIt really depends on what koan you're working on. As you may recall, i had two very different Rinzai teachers, Eido Roshi Shimano @ Dai Bosatsu Zendo and Toni Packer @ Springwater. i did not find that conventional koans, like "Mu" worked for me, so i asked both of them if i could just use the "natural" koans from Bassui Tokusho (and Ramana Maharshi). i did not find that the translated Japanese and Chinese koans worked well w/the western mind, as what may be paradoxical to those cultures is very different from ours.
As DBZ had Bassui's famous "Dharma Talk on One Mind" in its very thin sutra book, Eido Roshi approved, as did Toni as she knew Ramana Maharshi's and Nisargadatta's work, and i worked with "Where am I?", and "Who hears?" mostly as they were the most effective ones for me. i also worked a great deal on letting go of all of my attachments including the belief that i was this body.
As you have read, ultimately the internal narrative thoughts stopped, and along w/them self-referential fears, desires, suffering, and any illusion of free will or control. Both Eido Roshi and Toni passed me w/ease.
i don't know your background, but if your koan couldn't handle the thinking, i would consider a shift to something like self-inquiry, a.k.a. Bassui. your Zen training has been incredibly valuable in leading to where you are now, but it may be that it has done what it can do, and a "next boat" is necessary.
stillness