Q. Ramana and his self-realized students (Lakshmana, Annamalai) all said that self-realization means the complete death/demise of I-thought and it would never rise again. In your presentation, you said you still see self-referential thoughts appear sometimes. Could you elaborate on this?
G. Ramana was virtually never directly asked how many thoughts he had, or his personal daily experience, because of the great reverence in which he was (deservedly) held. He seldom talked about his personal internal state, instead telling the questioner to worry about their own state, rather than his (which is typically my answer as well).
What really matters is the questioner's situation anyway, not Ramana's. Talking directly on the matter would have landed him where i am with you and with many others who have similarly inquired, with a lengthy discussion required. The classical and contemporary Zen "masters" were very secretive for just the same reason, IMHO. Many/most "awakened" folk today, and historically, refuse(d) to talk about it (perhaps for fear of being "discovered").
Interestingly, although i have given talks about this loss of thought, except for the conditions i outlined, in Asia, Europe and the U.S., no allegedly "awakened" folk has ever challenged me.
When my two Zen masters quickly "passed me", they seemed amazed that i rarely had thoughts, which told me a lot.
It was a challenge when the page turned for me, that no one had talked about what happens "afterwards" as much happens after a/the major shift. Adyashanti, the American Zen master was the first one who talked openly on the subject; it was enormously helpful for "me"; i have followed his approach. Adya freely admits he has thoughts still but stated once that he "doesn't even keep track of how many there are".
Years ago, i did find only one statement from Ramana on the subject:
"Questioner: Do you have thoughts?
Bhagavan Ramana: I usually have no thoughts.
Questioner: And when someone asks you a question?
Bhagavan Ramana: Then, too. I have thoughts when replying, not otherwise."
From the section: "GURU" (page 19-20) in the book, "MORE DOUBTS AND 100
MORE ANSWERS ," compiled and edited by A.R. Natarajan. Published by Ramana
Maharshi Centre for Learning, Bangalore, India.
re Annamalai, of whom i am a big fan, (i have no good information on Lakshmana), i refer to David Godman's excellent biography on Annamalai Swami, "Living By The Words of Bhagavan". Annamalai Swami had many challenges overseeing construction of the ashram and asked Ramana many questions; Ramana's replies would indicate that he was not "awakened". Only when he became a recluse, at Ramana's insistence, did he apparently "awaken" into something like a thoughtless situation.
i have personally found that i can be totally thoughtless if i have no "job" to do that requires planning and problem solving. If those are required, then there will be some bursts of disconnected thoughts especially in the morning when the hippocampus/short term working memory is presenting the results of the planning and problem solving (arguably not "self referential"). (As i mentioned, as i am hypoglycemic, if my blood sugar is too low, or if i am extremely tired, then thoughts may also start. That's another long discussion with more cognitive neuroscience than we have space for here.)
As our brains evolved, a relatively unsophisticated and limited-capacity secondary symbolic consciousness developed over the last 100,000 years. This sits atop a huge, parallel processor with great memory, our primary consciousness. The symbolic consciousness is the input/output interface to primary consciousness. Without it, there is no way to communicate the complex output of any planning or problem solving to others.
Shutting down, completely, forever, the symbolic consciousness would make it impossible to usefully plan or problem solve; if you're a recluse w/others caring for you, that is not a problem. Most folk today would have a critical loss of functional capacity, certainly if they were working in today's world at any skilled, knowledge-based position with a family, mortgage, etc.
Having a few minutes a day of thought seems a small price to pay for remaining fully functional and independent in our complex, knowledge-based contemporary world.
stillness
G. Ramana was virtually never directly asked how many thoughts he had, or his personal daily experience, because of the great reverence in which he was (deservedly) held. He seldom talked about his personal internal state, instead telling the questioner to worry about their own state, rather than his (which is typically my answer as well).
What really matters is the questioner's situation anyway, not Ramana's. Talking directly on the matter would have landed him where i am with you and with many others who have similarly inquired, with a lengthy discussion required. The classical and contemporary Zen "masters" were very secretive for just the same reason, IMHO. Many/most "awakened" folk today, and historically, refuse(d) to talk about it (perhaps for fear of being "discovered").
Interestingly, although i have given talks about this loss of thought, except for the conditions i outlined, in Asia, Europe and the U.S., no allegedly "awakened" folk has ever challenged me.
When my two Zen masters quickly "passed me", they seemed amazed that i rarely had thoughts, which told me a lot.
It was a challenge when the page turned for me, that no one had talked about what happens "afterwards" as much happens after a/the major shift. Adyashanti, the American Zen master was the first one who talked openly on the subject; it was enormously helpful for "me"; i have followed his approach. Adya freely admits he has thoughts still but stated once that he "doesn't even keep track of how many there are".
Years ago, i did find only one statement from Ramana on the subject:
"Questioner: Do you have thoughts?
Bhagavan Ramana: I usually have no thoughts.
Questioner: And when someone asks you a question?
Bhagavan Ramana: Then, too. I have thoughts when replying, not otherwise."
From the section: "GURU" (page 19-20) in the book, "MORE DOUBTS AND 100
MORE ANSWERS ," compiled and edited by A.R. Natarajan. Published by Ramana
Maharshi Centre for Learning, Bangalore, India.
re Annamalai, of whom i am a big fan, (i have no good information on Lakshmana), i refer to David Godman's excellent biography on Annamalai Swami, "Living By The Words of Bhagavan". Annamalai Swami had many challenges overseeing construction of the ashram and asked Ramana many questions; Ramana's replies would indicate that he was not "awakened". Only when he became a recluse, at Ramana's insistence, did he apparently "awaken" into something like a thoughtless situation.
i have personally found that i can be totally thoughtless if i have no "job" to do that requires planning and problem solving. If those are required, then there will be some bursts of disconnected thoughts especially in the morning when the hippocampus/short term working memory is presenting the results of the planning and problem solving (arguably not "self referential"). (As i mentioned, as i am hypoglycemic, if my blood sugar is too low, or if i am extremely tired, then thoughts may also start. That's another long discussion with more cognitive neuroscience than we have space for here.)
As our brains evolved, a relatively unsophisticated and limited-capacity secondary symbolic consciousness developed over the last 100,000 years. This sits atop a huge, parallel processor with great memory, our primary consciousness. The symbolic consciousness is the input/output interface to primary consciousness. Without it, there is no way to communicate the complex output of any planning or problem solving to others.
Shutting down, completely, forever, the symbolic consciousness would make it impossible to usefully plan or problem solve; if you're a recluse w/others caring for you, that is not a problem. Most folk today would have a critical loss of functional capacity, certainly if they were working in today's world at any skilled, knowledge-based position with a family, mortgage, etc.
Having a few minutes a day of thought seems a small price to pay for remaining fully functional and independent in our complex, knowledge-based contemporary world.
stillness
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