what are "planning thoughts"? what are "narrative thoughts"?

Q. I understand the "I, me,my" illusion…has been the primary subject of inquiry for many years…a pure fabrication which is really the source of all the world's problems. When in the "no self" state, i have no sense of time, no affects, no narrative, etc. However, staying this way is difficult. When I slip out, there is a narrative...doesn't cause much trouble or… anxiety…a place for the last vestiges of the ego…and the trouble that goes along with that.

I'm also appreciating that you mean something different…when you use the word "thinking". You seem to be including…hand ringing deliberation that comes from conscious thought but not the more intuitive, more subconscious "thinking" that goes along with many decisions.

...last summer my mother had a very bad fall…she was unable to swallow…Almost daily decisions had to be made regarding procedures that had…life and death consequences…an impact on the quality of her life if she survived… everyone else involved was hysterical… I don't recall…a single moment of anxiety. …decisions…were made easily. Normally, I would have said that a fair amount of thinking was required…

By this new definition of thinking…little thinking was needed. After…questions…each option was clearly understood,…one particular course…seemed like the only way to go. … everything turned out fine…it would have been difficult to feel bad…no other course of action was possible. Maybe it is the lack of (self referential) thinking…that was the key…simply notice in each moment that there is no separate self...watch for thoughts that start a narrative…only a hand full or so a day.

Ayya Khema set up…network of convents in Germany, Sri Lanka, the US and Australia… had all the interpersonal and HR problems…found in all human organizations…Unfortunately most of her teachings that i am familiar with are about how to negotiate the first 999 miles of the journey and less about the final mile…another reason why i appreciate you and your input. There are a very limited number of people to have this kind of discussion with.
Thanks again.


Gary:

Namaste.

Good comments.

…a scientist by training and manager of many scientists and engineers in my career, i recognize how scientific/engineering problems get framed and solved. IME, that is very different from the discursive self-referential thought…in most folks' minds basically continuously and which causes…their worry, anger, fear, craving, etc.

… i often work w/grad students, post docs and faculty. Telling "knowledge workers"…to stop thinking will not work…Einstein's discoveries and many in quantum mechanics were initiated with "gedanken", or thought experiments…scientists' and engineers' mental time is consumed w/non-self-referential "thinking" which causes no clinging, desire or attachment, worry, etc.

Two papers from Jour of Cognitive Neuroscience point out how problem solving really gets done. Complex, non-linear problems are framed in "secondary/working/symbolic consciousness" and then get solved "off line" in "primary (sub)consciousness". When problems are solved, answers are delivered to "secondary/symbolic consciousness" which then takes credit for this achievement, which is what my engineers and scientists did. It is possible to know before secondary consciousness knows, that the problem has been solved by watching some key centers in primary consciousness with EEG and fMRI.

The relative capacities of the primary and secondary consciousnesses are what is astonishing. It is an axiom that "working memory/secondary symbolic consciousness" can only handle 7 +/- 2 discrete dissimilar elements at a time...not enough to solve any complex problem, only "frame" them and receive the solution. Solving the problem is done by primary consciousness with its 100 billion neurons and 50 trillion synaptic interconnections…which are massive memory storage and high speed parallel processors.

What you related wrt your mother's problem is what i am addressing. These are non-problematic functionalities evolutionarily developed over millenia to enable our species to survive and prosper; it would be foolish to hide it away.

If we could selectively, almost surgically remove the problematic discursive self-referential thoughts, and retain the useful/critical problem solving and planning functionality (and thoughts), that would be ideal. Amazingly, eliminating the "I, me, my" construct does that.

…if i have dramatically reduced the "I, me, my", there will be very few thoughts of any kind, esp problematic ones. When one gets into planning or problem solving, when a discursive thought arises it stands out dramatically, energetically. if focus is brought to it…tools are applied, it subsides. If one does this many times, the brain learns how to do this automatically w/o any external intervention.

This "dual types of thought" approach allows "knowledge workers" to engage the process w/o running away from it w/o looking at it...their "available bandwidth" increases by reducing the noise of endless "self referential" thought and allowing the problem solving signal to be seen clearly.

...this monitoring/control system for some time requires a "doer", albeit a subtle and only occasional one, and not problematic. Ultimately what does happen, is that the doer goes away completely and there is no one minding the store, x/c the automatic brain monitoring/control system. This is the "sahaj"/natural state.