Q. What does it mean when someone says, "There are no others", or that "Everything is One"? Is there any way to look at that "scientifically"?
G. One of the common phenomena reported by mystics, "enlightened folk" (whatever that means to you), folk on psychedelics, etc., is that their direct perception is that "there are no others". They also describe it as "seeing everything as one". When folk talk about this, are they just delusional or is there some neurocognitive, scientific approach to explain this reported state?
First, to understand what this phenomena is, it is useful to understand how mysticism is actually described and measured. Jeffery Martin's doctoral thesis "Ego Development Stage Does Not Predict Persistent Non-Symbolic Experience" at the California Institute of Integral Studies, which was described earlier in the blog (Do All Awakened Folk Behave the Same? Better? Worse" Are They Mystical?), and in which "i" was a subject, focused on mystical experiences and the psychological development level of those who claimed to have them.
Jeffery employed the widely used Hood Mysticism Scale, developed by Ralph Hood of the University of Tennessee - Chattanooga, who was on Jeffery's doctoral committee. Jeffery selected his study population from 500 possible candidates who had "self reported" that they had persistent "non-symbolic" consciousness. From that population, he narrowed it down to 52 folk, of which 36 agreed to participate in his study. To assess how "mystical" these folk were, Jeffery applied the Hood Mysticism Scale test to the 36 of us.
The eight categories of mysticism in Hood's scale, originally presented in Ralph Hood's seminal 1975 paper "The Construction and Preliminary Validation of a Measure of Reported Mystical Experience" in the Journal for the Scientific Study of Religion 14(1): 29-41, and updated in several succeeding papers through 2001 including Hood, et.al “Dimensions of the Mysticism Scale: Confirming the Three-Factor Structure in the United States and Iran.” Journal for the Scientific Study of Religion 40(4):691-705., were:
EGO QUALITY (E): Refers to the experience of a loss of sense of self while consciousness is nevertheless maintained. The loss of self is commonly experienced as an absorption into something greater than the mere empirical ego.
UNIFYING QUALITY (U): Refers to the experience of the multiplicity of objects of perception as nevertheless united. Everything is in fact perceived as "One."
INNER SUBJECTIVE QUALITY (Is): Refers to the perception of an inner subjectivity to all things, even those usually experienced in purely material forms.
TEMPORAL/ SPATIAL QUALITY (T): Refers to the temporal and spatial parameters of the experience. Essentially both time and space are modified with the extreme being one of an experience that is both "timeless" and "spaceless."
NOETIC QUALITY (N): Refers to the experience as a source of valid knowledge. Emphasis is on a nonrational, intuitive, insightful experience that is nevertheless recognized as not merely subjective.
INEFFABILITY (I) Refers to the impossibility of expressing the experience in conventional language. The experience simply cannot be put into words due to the nature of the experience itself and not to the linguistic capacity of the subject.
POSITIVE AFFECT (P): Refers to the positive affective quality of the experience. Typically the experience is of joy or blissful happiness.
RELIGIOUS QUALITY (R): Refers to the intrinsic sacredness of the experience. This includes feelings of mystery, am, and reverence that may nevertheless be expressed independently of traditional religious language.
The Hood Scale ranges from 32 (least mystical) to 160 (most mystical). Of the 32 folk in Jeffery's study, 9 of us scored 160. The Hood Scale parameters, individual scores and protocol are detailed in Jeffery's thesis.
Of these eight categories, "Unifying Quality" (U) is the closest to the mystical experience of seeing everything as "One". (Is) could also apply. Others of these could pertain to how one expressed that experience.
How could we explain this neuroscientifically?
Well, the most useful paper is our often cited Andrews-Hannah, et. al. "Functional Anatomic Fractionation of the Brain's Default Network" published in Neuron, 2010, February 25, (65)4: 550-562. In that paper, they determined the 11 brain centers involved in "selfing" of different types. They are shown in the fMRIs at the upper left (A), locationally (B), by correlation with each other (C) and organizationally (D).
The "blue" network, referred to as the "dorsal medial prefrontal cortex subsystem" is preferentially activated for the "self-and-other". The "green" network", referred to as the "medial temporal lobe system" is the "self-in-time". The core "yellow" network of two centers is involved in all activities. The thickness of the lines shows how strongly those two centers are connected.
If the "green" network was deactivated, it would logically follow that one would lose the "feeling/sense of time", and become "timeless" as described in Hood's (T) mystical characteristic described above. If the "blue" network was deactivated, it would account for Hood's (U), (Is) and possibly (E) mystical characteristics. Significantly, if either of the centers of the core "yellow" network were deactivated, both sub-networks would be deactivated, and all four; (T), (E), (U) and (Is) would be observed.
That is exactly what is found in Brewer's "Meditation Experience is Associated with Differences in Default Mode Network Activity and Connectivity", which was discussed in an earlier blog (Folk Who Meditate Decrease Mind Wandering).
As you can see, with extensive meditation experience, the medial prefrontal cortex in a) (yellow core center), and posterior cingulate cortex in b) (yellow core center) are both deactivated in meditators relative to controls. If this was persistent, it would lead one to report Hood's (E), (U), (T) and possibly (Is) mystical experiences as observed in Jeffery Martin's thesis.
This same deactivation of the core "yellow" centers as well as similar mystical experiences were observed with psilocybin/magic mushrooms as reported in a top tier journal and covered in an earlier blog (Magic Mushrooms Work Like Meditation? The Latest Science).
So what are "we" really experiencing when the sense of "other" disappears along with the sense of "time", and we find ourselves "timeless" and "one w/everything else"? What is truly real? If it is just different functional parts of the neuroanatomy creating this perception in the first place through their activity, and that disappears when they are deactivated with meditation (or psychedelics), what is really there and how would we know?
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| Ralph Hood University of Tennessee - Chattanooga |
G. One of the common phenomena reported by mystics, "enlightened folk" (whatever that means to you), folk on psychedelics, etc., is that their direct perception is that "there are no others". They also describe it as "seeing everything as one". When folk talk about this, are they just delusional or is there some neurocognitive, scientific approach to explain this reported state?
First, to understand what this phenomena is, it is useful to understand how mysticism is actually described and measured. Jeffery Martin's doctoral thesis "Ego Development Stage Does Not Predict Persistent Non-Symbolic Experience" at the California Institute of Integral Studies, which was described earlier in the blog (Do All Awakened Folk Behave the Same? Better? Worse" Are They Mystical?), and in which "i" was a subject, focused on mystical experiences and the psychological development level of those who claimed to have them.
Jeffery employed the widely used Hood Mysticism Scale, developed by Ralph Hood of the University of Tennessee - Chattanooga, who was on Jeffery's doctoral committee. Jeffery selected his study population from 500 possible candidates who had "self reported" that they had persistent "non-symbolic" consciousness. From that population, he narrowed it down to 52 folk, of which 36 agreed to participate in his study. To assess how "mystical" these folk were, Jeffery applied the Hood Mysticism Scale test to the 36 of us.
The eight categories of mysticism in Hood's scale, originally presented in Ralph Hood's seminal 1975 paper "The Construction and Preliminary Validation of a Measure of Reported Mystical Experience" in the Journal for the Scientific Study of Religion 14(1): 29-41, and updated in several succeeding papers through 2001 including Hood, et.al “Dimensions of the Mysticism Scale: Confirming the Three-Factor Structure in the United States and Iran.” Journal for the Scientific Study of Religion 40(4):691-705., were:
EGO QUALITY (E): Refers to the experience of a loss of sense of self while consciousness is nevertheless maintained. The loss of self is commonly experienced as an absorption into something greater than the mere empirical ego.
UNIFYING QUALITY (U): Refers to the experience of the multiplicity of objects of perception as nevertheless united. Everything is in fact perceived as "One."
INNER SUBJECTIVE QUALITY (Is): Refers to the perception of an inner subjectivity to all things, even those usually experienced in purely material forms.
TEMPORAL/ SPATIAL QUALITY (T): Refers to the temporal and spatial parameters of the experience. Essentially both time and space are modified with the extreme being one of an experience that is both "timeless" and "spaceless."
NOETIC QUALITY (N): Refers to the experience as a source of valid knowledge. Emphasis is on a nonrational, intuitive, insightful experience that is nevertheless recognized as not merely subjective.
INEFFABILITY (I) Refers to the impossibility of expressing the experience in conventional language. The experience simply cannot be put into words due to the nature of the experience itself and not to the linguistic capacity of the subject.
POSITIVE AFFECT (P): Refers to the positive affective quality of the experience. Typically the experience is of joy or blissful happiness.
RELIGIOUS QUALITY (R): Refers to the intrinsic sacredness of the experience. This includes feelings of mystery, am, and reverence that may nevertheless be expressed independently of traditional religious language.
The Hood Scale ranges from 32 (least mystical) to 160 (most mystical). Of the 32 folk in Jeffery's study, 9 of us scored 160. The Hood Scale parameters, individual scores and protocol are detailed in Jeffery's thesis.
Of these eight categories, "Unifying Quality" (U) is the closest to the mystical experience of seeing everything as "One". (Is) could also apply. Others of these could pertain to how one expressed that experience.
How could we explain this neuroscientifically?
The "blue" network, referred to as the "dorsal medial prefrontal cortex subsystem" is preferentially activated for the "self-and-other". The "green" network", referred to as the "medial temporal lobe system" is the "self-in-time". The core "yellow" network of two centers is involved in all activities. The thickness of the lines shows how strongly those two centers are connected.
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| Jessica Andrews-Hannah Harvard |
As you can see, with extensive meditation experience, the medial prefrontal cortex in a) (yellow core center), and posterior cingulate cortex in b) (yellow core center) are both deactivated in meditators relative to controls. If this was persistent, it would lead one to report Hood's (E), (U), (T) and possibly (Is) mystical experiences as observed in Jeffery Martin's thesis.
This same deactivation of the core "yellow" centers as well as similar mystical experiences were observed with psilocybin/magic mushrooms as reported in a top tier journal and covered in an earlier blog (Magic Mushrooms Work Like Meditation? The Latest Science).
So what are "we" really experiencing when the sense of "other" disappears along with the sense of "time", and we find ourselves "timeless" and "one w/everything else"? What is truly real? If it is just different functional parts of the neuroanatomy creating this perception in the first place through their activity, and that disappears when they are deactivated with meditation (or psychedelics), what is really there and how would we know?
It would be interesting to see data correlating Hood Mysticism Score with general Positive Affect Scores, perhaps also with Big-Five Personality Trait Neuroticism. I know Positive Affect is one of the dimensions in the Hood Mysticism Score but it would be great to flesh it out separately as well. If one could determine the correlation then you could establish a causal relationship between raising the mysticism score and a corresponding rise in happiness, which I'm sure exists but it'd be great to see it in the literature.
ReplyDeleteHi Anonymous,
DeleteActually, if you read Jeffery Martin's thesis, which is referenced in the blogpost, you'll see that there was no "causal relationship between raising the mysticism score and a corresponding rise in happiness" in that carefully-selected population, other than in my case.
IME, that "causal relationship" has been shown with many others with whom i have worked over some significant time, 1/1.
It is important to realize that the approach that "i" used, and now use with others, is different from Jeffery Martin's current "Finders' Course", which i do not recommend.
Given the small population, there has been no interest in funding a peer review-able, publishable, control-based, study by objective third parties, so it's unlikely you'll see it in the literature.
stillness
Gary, the Ribhu Gita says there are no multiple existences, only the Self exists. Sages including Ramana Maharshi say that when one seeks a guru, the Self manifests one. It seems at times absurd that other people exist when my mind comes in with thinking.
ReplyDeleteIn my memory of dreams there are people, but on waking and identifying with this body it seems those dream people did not have a real separate existence. Ramana touched on this in a story about how it's foolish to ask a friend who appeared in a dream if he was there. Robert Adams speaks about how he doesn't see a difference between dream and waking. He says the waking world is like a dream.
Is it the case that there is not other people out there having separate experiences? That there is just this one experience?
Hi Anonymous.
DeleteYes, it is like Ramana says in "Talks" which is available as a .pdf @ https://selfdefinition.org/ramana/Talks-with-Sri-Ramana-Maharshi--complete.pdf:
Can there be the individual without Siva? Even now He is you. There is no question of time. If there be a moment of non-realisation, the question of realisation can arise.
But as it is you cannot be without Him. He is already realised, ever realised and never non-realised.
Surrender to Him and abide by His will whether he appears or vanishes; await His pleasure. If you ask Him to do as you please, it is not surrender but command to Him. You cannot have Him obey you and yet think that you have surrendered.
He knows what is best and when and how to do it. Leave everything entirely to Him.
His is the burden: you have no longer any cares. All your cares are His. Such is surrender.
"Talks" is worth reading through in its entirety. It was written down in English every day as he said it and then Ramana reviewed it (he was fluent in English) every night to make sure it was correct. It is an unusual and powerful document.
Trust this is useful.
stillness
Hey, that version of talks is different from the printed version I’ve read. Thanks for sharing it.
ReplyDeleteSometimes what I read becomes incorporated something of a logical framework that comes in after stillness gets broken. I get this dialogue that refutes memories of people or desires. It goes kind of like “yes, . The sages say ______ (e.g. He knows what is best and when and how to do it) . Isn’t that really what’s true?”
I wish I could surrender fully once and for all. In some way, I guess that’s what is happening when thoughts and attachments arise and are met with self-inquiry. Ramana said something like “thoughts arise to be destroyed,” and “no matter how hard you are trying to realize the self, the self is trying to pull you in harder.”
I like this line after the quote you shared:
"Or, enquire to whom these questions arise. Dive deep in the Heart and remain as the Self. One of these two ways is open to the aspirant."
Yes, if you go to Amazon, and put in "Talks With (Sri) Ramana Maharshi" you will see several versions. The one that i quoted was from https://www.amazon.com/Talks-Ramana-Maharshi-T-M-P-Mahadevan/dp/1895959446/, which i bought in India at Ramanasramam when it first came out. It combined the three separate original Volumes into one.
DeleteInner Directions made a more Western accessible adaptation of this with some editing and eliminating almost all of the Sanskrit which was very popular @ https://www.amazon.com/Talks-Ramana-Maharshi-Realizing-Happiness/dp/1878019007/.
This has now been replaced by https://www.amazon.com/Talks-Ramana-Maharshi-Munagala-Venkataramiah/dp/8188018074/ which is published directly by Ramanasramam.
David Godman's "Be As You Are" is popular and has much material from "Talks" but is heavily edited and suffers from David's biases and personal beliefs.
Don't overlook "Who Am I?" as it is a powerful simple, short text which i basically memorized and used as my guide for many years. "Talks" and "Who am I?" are the only two books on Ramana that you really need.
Trust this is useful.
stillness and letting go