Saturday, December 7, 2013

The Neuroscience of Suffering...And Its End...."no thoughts"?

The current Psychology Tomorrow has an article, "The Neuroscience of Suffering...And Its End", by Jeff Warren, which describes much of "my story".  Jeff moderated the panel discussion @ the Science and NonDuality Conference in the Netherlands this spring, on which i was a participant.  This is covered in the blogpost "Living w/an absolute perspective in a relative world...three different perspectives".   Jeff is the creator/leader of the meditation school, The Way of the Conscious Explorer.
Jeff Warren

"The Neuroscience of Suffering ...And Its End" starts w/"my" realizing that the endless, self-referential internal narrative (SRIN), "blah, blah", was causing my suffering, and then setting out to see, empirically, if there was a way to end it. 


There is an excellent discussion of the historical detail of this search here that has not often appeared before leading up to the stopping of SRIN.  Jeff is an excellent story teller, and does a masterful job.  

The practice essentials were described in "we need a new mental operating system...now" presented @ the Buddhist Geeks Conference in August and  Dartmouth's EE Just Symposium in October.   



 "The Neuroscience of Suffering..." then describes "my" fMRI scans @ Yale in Jud Brewer's  research lab.  Jud's important work on experienced Theravadan Buddhist meditators was described in "Folk Who Meditate Decrease Mind Wandering".  

As Jud described my scan, he said that these experienced Buddhist meditators (when meditating and shortly thereafter) had lower activation of their default mode network (DMN), but   

           "when Brewer put Weber in the scanner he found the opposite...Weber’s baseline was already a relatively deactivated DMN.  Trying to meditate – making any kind of deliberate effort – actually disrupted his peace...something Brewer had only seen a few times...and other researchers had...only reported anecdotally".
Jud Brewer

As the article points out, Jud and i have different opinions on the importance of the absence of SRIN from this "no effort" deactivated DMN, i.e. "no thoughts".  While many folk and traditions describe a state (not an experience) of "no thoughts" as the goal ("Who else believes "no thoughts" is the goal of meditation"), Jud believes that 

      "the thoughts themselves...may not actually be the problem; the real problem is our human tendency to...get “caught up” in these thoughts."

The article describes Jud's, a diligent Theravada practitioner, neurological perspective as "a movement towards what Brewer calls 'evidence-based faith' where science may be able to help teachers and practitioners fine-tune the approaches they take to practice."  

As previously described, i did not rely upon any religion, doctrine, or philosophy, but took a purely "secular", empirical, contemporary, open-sourced approach to ending my personal suffering.   i did not find religion to be necessary.   

Jeff's summary:

        "Like the Buddha’s Four Noble Truths with a psychotherapeutic twist, Weber has it down to a terse progression: 'I had suffering, it came from my attachments. My attachments cause me to slip over into the narrator.  If I stop that, I lose my suffering.  We have the tools to do this.  They require no scriptural texts or philosophy.  All it takes is persistence and curiosity.  The old ego-motivated human existence, our 75,000 year old operating system with its need to gratify our desires and exploit the environment and have six of this and ten of that - that can all fall away. It’s time for an upgrade.'”

Folk posted the article on FB and discussions ensued.  Here is one w/Duff McDuffee and Jody Radzik:


Duff    

Personally I have plenty of thoughts, but few "emotionally-charged, self-referential" ones that disturb me or use up mental "bandwidth." I attribute that to Vipassana and lots of CoreTransformation.
Jody Radzik

Jody    

Self-referential thoughts have no power to cause suffering when they are decoupled from emotional content and drained of their significance.

Gary  

Getting rid of self-referential internal narrative (SRIN), IME, is the only way to be totally free of suffering…SRIN… is the best indicator of where you are still attached…If you do self-inquiry and "letting go" practices ("Surrendering the "I", letting go of suffering")...you can let go of these remaining attachments.

In working w/folk,  i find the problem is…that folk really want to keep some of their attachments.  As Buddha said a long time ago, suffering arises from attachment.  That's still true.  It's a bad bet long term, as the brain overweights negative emotions 5X positive ones. 

There is a video on types of thoughts that might be useful "What no thoughts means...".

Duff  

An interesting POV that's for sure, Gary. I'm not sure if I totally agree with it, but I'll continue to investigate.  
Duff McDuffee

For years I've used the guide not of thoughts, but of suffering, specifically that of feeling sympathetic nervous system activation in contexts which are actually safe.  I've largely corrected that in my system, so I feel relatively free from major suffering at this time and thus lack any real desire to continue seeking or working on my spiritual development.  But I do like to sit silently from time to time just to rest, which can be nice.

Gary   

Just FYI, "no thoughts" is not something i uniquely discovered as a goal; it is a goal of many traditions… The blogpost "Who else believes "no thoughts" is the goal of meditation?" gives some of these.


Duff 

 I've read that, and I do believe some people have emphasized "no thoughts" as the goal...


Jody 

 I'm wondering how the notion of "no thoughts" can be congruent with the fact of communication. Are you saying that you don't "know" what you're saying, Gary?

Gary  

Do you consciously think up what you're saying before you say it? Or does it just happen? This is a common misconception. i don't know about you, but i don't prementate my speaking, and never did.  i may be aware of it after it emerges, but that is after the fact. 

Duff    

"SRIN" seems to me to be very, very different than "no thoughts."    Thoughts are absolutely necessary for speaking, for recognizing one's own face in the mirror, for understanding what others are saying, for driving a car, and just about everything else humans do.

On the other hand, a constant anxiety-producing inner monologue, or an inner critic that is always active--these things are certainly optional.

Gary   

i don't understand what you mean by needing thoughts to recognize your face in a mirror or understanding what others are saying, or driving your car.  The brain does that "all by itself" w/o "my" doing anything about it…Difficult to call those "thoughts" as we are clueless of how that is done or what occurs.

Duff  

In terms of conscious thought, all the things I mentioned certainly require *unconscious* processing, or what I'd simply call "thought". Certainly the first time one drives a car or does math one must think consciously and deliberately at least, as well as any time one drives a new car, or thinks through a challenging topic, or studies for a history quiz, etc.


Gary   

It is a semantic question. i don't call that "un/non-conscious" processing "thought", as it brings in the confusion we're discussing.   re driving a car, the brain scans while learning how to ride a bike show a great deal of brain activity.  Later, it becomes "automatic" and almost no fMRI activity…is observed…

re math, or learning new material, or solving a complex problem, that is not "self-referential", and that is the "tasking" circuit, so that is not a problem…complex problems are solved "off-line -  non-consciously" after being framed "consciously".

Jody 

…Would it make sense to say that no-thought is actually the background of thought?   As I'm typing these words, they are "said" internally.  That is thinking.  But if I look at the background behind the thoughts, there is no-thinking there. Is this analogous to what you're saying?

 …I think we're on the same page as to the nature of "no thoughts." 

Gary 

i agree Jody. This is largely a semantic problem…

Peter Higgs
Nobel Laureate
… Stillness is everywhere, in everything, etc. and it is either clouded over or not.  we even have the possibility w/the Higgs field/boson verification ("How Consciousness Creates Matter...")/Nobel Prize that such an all-pervasive field does exist and it creates matter out of potential matter. 

We have no proof that it is "self/Self aware" or "intelligent" and may never be able to discern that...we will be unable to "stand outside" of it to discern its characteristics - the ultimate observer problem. 

stillness.             





9 comments:

  1. Like the Buddha’s Four Noble Truths with a psychotherapeutic twist, Weber has it down to a terse progression: 'I had suffering, it came from my attachments. My attachments cause me to slip over into the narrator. If I stop that, I lose my suffering. We have the tools to do this. They require no scriptural texts or philosophy. All it takes is persistence and curiosity. The old ego-motivated human existence, our 75,000 year old operating system with its need to gratify our desires and exploit the environment and have six of this and ten of that - that can all fall away. It’s time for an upgrade

    Im a 25 year old Paraguayan Computer Science student in break, I would like to volunteer for the upgrade, I suffered a lot, I was severely depressed and I want to work tirelessly for the end of suffering.

    How can I volunteer to use the tools?

    ReplyDelete
  2. Hi Sebastian.

    Consider yourself volunteered.

    Since you're in Comp Sci, and Amazon won't deliver to Paraguay, download Happiness Beyond Thought (free) @ http://preview.tinyurl.com/bslfll8, and read it over break.

    While you're doing that, go to youTube and put my name and "meditation" in the search box; you'll find 4 videos on "NonDual Awakening Meditation", do them over the break as often as you're inclined to do, probably 2/day. Look under the "About" under the vid for links to interviews, website, e-mail, etc.

    you'll also find a video on "Using Yoga Posture Flows for NonDual Awakening", do them 4 or 5 times each every day.

    Pick an inquiry question from "Happiness Beyond Thought" and spend at least an hour a day w/it, sitting, or walking and then during your activities during the day, whenever it comes up.

    Let me know by e-mail how you make out.

    Trust this is useful.

    stillness

    ReplyDelete
  3. Thanks for al the recommendations I will take them, (and yes I can get things delivered from amazon through another company)
    but I was referring to this

    Weber agrees, “Right now we can get folks off the street and within one or two runs in the Yale fMRI they can produce this deactivated state. The more glimpses the brain gets, the more time it spends there, the more it can stay there. It’s like riding a bike. With this technology you may not have to spend twenty-five years practicing like I did. It’s much more efficient.”

    I have a place to stay in Connecticut, I could go to the US, would take me as a volunteer to try the gizmo? I think it will be extremely helpful.

    thanks again Gary!

    ReplyDelete
  4. Hi Sebastian.

    Jud Brewer, the Yale Principal Investigator, is leaving Yale in January and taking some of his grad students w/him to U Mass Medical School in Wooster, MA. It's too soon to know what research work he will be doing @ U Mass, although he will be Director of Research for their Center for Mindfulness.

    There is no indication of what will happen to Jud's work @ Yale.

    Will keep blog readers posted wherever, or by whoever, the next "useful" effort manifests.

    stillness

    ReplyDelete
  5. hey Gary I just wanted to know, shouldnt I just take psilocybin?

    ReplyDelete
  6. Hi Sebastian.

    i am not pushing psychedelics, really. i remain a "virgin" on psychedelics, so they are not necessary, although many folk i work w/have done psychedelics. What i am doing is reporting on my experiences w/folk.

    These are not scientifically-based studies w/control-groups and randomly selected participants, but are anecdotal and based only on the folk who have manifested to work w/me, which may or may not be representative of a larger population.

    The psilocybin studies in the UK discussed in the blogposts "magic mushrooms work like meditation? the latest science" and @ Johns Hopkins in US "the latest psychedelic research...new meditation +/- psychedelics studies" were/are done in very carefully-controlled conditions, w/two monitors and a doctor standing by, w/a carefully selected population of participants and well-known concentrations of active ingredients. That is seldom the case, as i understand it, w/most folks' experiences.

    There have been some spectacular deaths while on psychedelics in our small college town recently in "uncontrolled" situations, so it can be a serious decision w/large implications. If someone chooses to take psychedlics, they need to keep all of this in mind.

    stillness


    ReplyDelete
  7. Hey Gary, Thanks for answering.
    What do you think of these?
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isolation_tank

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Hi Sebastian. Am a big fan of isolation tanks.

      First "floated" decades ago when they were first coming on "the scene". At our university, they actually set up a flotation tank a few year ago in the anthropology department in which many studies were done and in which i participated.

      It is critical that the temperature be as close to body temperature as possible and that it be totally dark and quiet if at all achievable. It is also critical that things like circulating fans or mixing motors to equalize temperature be shut off if possible during the "float".

      Many folk have a difficult time in this environment as they are so attuned to constant stimulation. IME, it is a great practice to see that "you are not this body", and are not these senses; key elements of nonduality.

      stillness

      Delete
  8. Hi Sebastian,

    Re: The Desensitization chambers, may please like to see:

    My Experiments On Sensory Deprivation By John LeKay
    http://beyond-advaita.blogspot.com/2013/12/my-experiments-on-sensory-deprivation.html

    thanks and regards,

    ReplyDelete