Goldie Hawn |
Not surprisingly, as "everyone" is doing it, many folk are doing it themselves (DIY) w/little or no supervision, teaching or on-going coaching, w/the potential for adverse consequences.
A recent article "Enlightenment's Evil Twin" by Jeff Warren in Psychology Tomorrow, highlighted the problems that mindfulness meditation can lead to as one pursues it more deeply w/o capable coaching or preparation.
IMHO, the title, "Enlightenment's Evil Twin" is unfortunate. Branding phenomena that can be encountered in the process of awakening as "evil", pathologizes the process and impedes dealing w/it. "Twin" implies that "enlightenment" has an opposite, equally-prominent and likely counterpart; that is not correct. As we will see, the attitude toward the "nondual" state is a critical element in what problems manifest.
Jeff recently covered my "no thoughts" state and the research in which i was a subject/collaborator @ Yale w/Jud Brewer (now @ U Mass), also in Psychology Tomorrow, discussed in the blogpost "The Neuroscience of Suffering...And Its End...'no thoughts'?".
Jeff, a great story teller, told the story of Hans, who started in TM and then ended up in vipassana, a popular and important branch in mindfulness, studying w/Jeff's teacher, Shinzen Young, one of the most popular contemporary Buddhist teachers. One morning, Hans found that "the 'self' had without any warning disappeared...it was the most terrifying and alienating thing that ever happened to me".
Shinzen Young |
The article discusses this "hidden"/infrequently discussed issue - the negative aspects of mindfulness meditation. Shinzen describes "enlightenment" as "the most profoundly positive experience" of folks' lives which "allows a person to live ten times the size they would have lived otherwise, it frees them from most worries and concerns, it gives them a quality of absolute freedom and repose."
But, once in a while, something goes wrong in mindfulness meditation and in TM as described in "Collision With the Infinite: A Life Beyond the Personal Self" - Suzanne Segal's chronicle of her TM crisis. Han's and Suzanne's crises are known by Christians as "The Dark Night of the Soul" (DNoS) and by Buddhists as "the pit of the Void".
Suzanne Segal Post-TM DNoS |
As Shinzen points out, DNoS is pathologized by contemporary psychologists as "depersonalization and de-realization disorder". Few psychologists know anything about nonduality. Suzanne's great difficulties w/psychologists demonstrate this. Suzanne was finally "rescued" when she found a Zen teacher and a prominent advaita teacher.
The most prominent researcher on DNoS is Willougby Britton, a serious meditator, clinical psychologist and assistant professor @ Brown University, who has also encountered this problem herself.
Britton has characterized what types of folk are susceptible to "impairment" by DNoS, which she defines as "the inability of an adult to work or take care of children" which she found has an average duration of three years with a range from 6 months to 12 years. (As these are "worst case" situations, numbers are lower for a general population.)
Willoughby Britton Brown University |
Britton has said that "serious complications that require inpatient psychiatric hospitalization is probably less than one percent of meditators". Similarly, Shinzen Young indicates that a true DNoS is something he has only seen "a few times in his four decades of teaching".
Britton did not find any correlation to prior psychiatric or traumatic history. She identified two susceptible demographics: a) men, 18 to 30 years old, who go to Asia and do 10 to 20 hrs of meditation/day, and b) middle-aged women w/an hr/day practice who go to "say, Spirit Rock Meditation Center (vipassana - Insight Meditation Society is another) for the last 10 to 20 years".
i suspect that correlations might also exist to initial (not current) religious background. Arguably the Judeo-Christian religions have an underlying ethos of "suffering", which would support a DNoS experience. The stories of Bernadette Roberts and Mother Teresa, who both experienced DNoS, also point to this. As discussed in the blogpost "The process of nondual awakening...a new model...", Christians and some Buddhists (previously Judeo-Christians?) often stop at an intermediate point.
As Shinzen points out, "...almost everyone who gets anywhere with meditation will pass through
periods of negative emotion, confusion, disorientation, and heightened
sensitivity to internal and external arisings. The same thing can happen in
psychotherapy and other growth modalities. For the great majority of people,
the nature, intensity, and duration of these kinds of challenges is quite
manageable.”
St. John of the Cross Codifier of DNoS |
Despite his efforts on the phone over months w/Hans, Shinzen was reportedly unable to mediate Hans' symptoms which became more acute. Hans' healing began with his re-engaging serious physical practices - "Pilates, weight-training, yoga" - to integrate the psychological changes into his physical body.
IME, this has been one of the glaring weaknesses in many/most meditational approaches; the lack of physical practice to "embody" the big changes in "body-mind". Many stories locked in the physical body will only be accessed w/serious body work.
That is why the first "practices" discussed in my "Happiness Beyond Thought: A Practical Guide to Awakening" were yoga posture flows. i have done yoga every day for forty years (except for 2 weeks after abdominal surgery). i can't imagine what my "spiritual" practice would have been like w/o daily yoga.
Interestingly, one of the practices that Shinzen uses to deal w/DNoS situations is self-inquiry. IMHO, a vulnerability in traditional Buddhist practices in later stages is the lack of self-inquiry, i.e. Who is having, accumulating, and becoming the possessor of these experiences? If (s)he is not deconstructed along the way, (s)he will become THE problem. Who is having this DNoS?
There is also a danger of "scripting" in DNoS. Some teachers have insisted that DNoS is an essential part of the awakening process. If folk are told that enough times, it will become "scripted in" and will more likely manifest.
Britton has done some research on identifying indicators of awakening. The paper "A phenomenology of meditation-induced light experiences: traditional Buddhist and neurobiological perspectives", describes meditation-induced experiences w/light that are considered to be indicators of meditative proficiency and the ability to inhibit irrelevant inputs from impinging on attention.
Hakuun Yasutani |
Many meditative traditions treat these "light experiences" as "makyo". These are described by Yasutani Roshi, an iconic Rinzai Zen master, as "the phenomena - visions, hallucinations, fantasies, revelations, illusory sensations" - which can "become a serious obstacle to practice only if one is ignorant of their true nature and is ensnared by them." That is one of the reasons that some traditions sit w/their eyes open, partially, or fully.
Yasutani Roshi goes on to say that makyo vary "according to the personality and temperament of the sitter". It would be unfortunate if one particular kind of makyo was taken to be the indicator of progress in meditation simply because we are currently able to measure it.
So what do you do if you find yourself in DNoS or something you might regard as "loss of your 'personal self'":
a) Find someone to work with who knows nonduality/advaita to put this experience in context. It is unlikely that you will find a psychologist. It can be the best thing that ever happened to you, but you'll never believe that as long as everyone around you believes it is "evil".
b) If you can't find someone, read anything by Ramana Maharshi or Nisargadatta Maharaj.
c) If you need a psychotherapeutic approach to nonduality, read "The Sacred Mirror: Nondual Wisdom and Psychotherapy". Leading psychologists in this space are John Prendergast and Peter Fenner.
d) Engage in physical exercise of your choosing, like yoga, and do some simple self-inquiry like "To whom has this Dark Night arisen?", and "Where is the one who has this Dark Night?"
BTW, there is a useful interview with Katherine MacLean, "The Strange, Fuzzy, Fat Brick of Everything" that has a discussion of her brief DNoS and our working together. The key parts are 13:51 - 15.24, and 46:54 - 52:36. Katherine did a lot of research on both meditation and psychedelics, including putting together the current psilocybin +/- meditation program @ Johns Hopkins.
Excellent article, Gary, with a wealth of important information. I'm sending it to an interior designer friend who has expressed interest in vipassana. I also lent her HBT.
ReplyDeleteHi James. Great that you found the post useful. Given the great reputation of Savannah's College of Art and Design in Interior Design, i.e. being #1 nationally for so many years, hopefully she will find the work useful for herself and for others w/whom she comes in contact.
ReplyDeleteAgain, deep gratitude for your hosting my talks @ SCAD; it is amazing what wonderful students, faculty and facilities you have and how much SCAD has done to transform Savannah. Stillness
Thanks Gary, Love what you have written, very detailed, thorough and relevant. Will pass it on to friends.
ReplyDeleteHi Anamika.
DeleteGreat that you found it useful and relevant. It is a much misunderstood, feared, and discussed topic.
stillness
Great rebuttal to and expansion of Jeff Warren's article. Thank you, gary
ReplyDeleteHi Magarette. Thanks for the feedback. Great that you found it useful. stillness
DeleteGary, your comments on scripting are important. I think we in the practical dharma community tend to script each other to a larger extent than is commonly acknowledged and what get's called "DNOS" is really just normal stuff - problems at work, problems in relationships, and so on. These problems may seem larger or more related to practice because practice focuses us on the mind's workings, the nature of which can be a bit of a downer given our natural and habitual propensity to gloss over the negative narratives "in there." So, at least from my angle, the cause of the problems is not usually our practice but the practice can certainly can be the cause of our over-attentiveness to (otherwise) normally occurring problems.
ReplyDeleteHi Chris.
DeleteThanks for the feedback and the great perspective that frequently gets overlooked. Those of us who have meditated for so many hours can get stuck on perturbations in consciousness that were not even visible before.
As the muddy pond clears, or the lake gets drained, pick your metaphor, it is now easier to see, or imagine, in sharp detail and contrast a "problem" that can be magnified to great proportions, This can become acute as we compare it to our "expectations", or to what we hear, or project, of others' stories of their "progress".
we see our consciousness in detail and assume another's must be "better". However, we can only guess, always incorrectly to some degree, from our reading of the other folk's exterior actions (and our mirror neurons) what is really going on in their interior.
It is also helpful to remember as so many folk begin meditation practices, often w/o good guidance, how troubling the picture appeared when we first began to look at the pond and assumed it must be a problem w/the meditation. It was, in fact, just our first recognition of what had been going on "in there".
Trust all is well w/you and Chicago.
stillness
Rebuttal? I would say it's more of a faithful reiteration of each of my article's main points, which I actually appreciate. The only problem you seem to have with the piece is Shinzen's snappy characterization of these kind of experiences as "Enlightenment's Evil Twin." I think he would agree it doesn't help to demonize them; whether DPDR is as frequent / rare as awakening is an interesting question, one a psychiatrist would be better equipped to answer.
ReplyDeleteI love the nondual suggestions for working with these kinds of problems. I happen to know Hans spent a lot of time on these as well; in the end, as you say, it was an emphasis on the body that helped him the most.
Hi Gary,
ReplyDeleteCan you tell more about "Many stories locked in the physical body will only be accessed w/serious body work."? Maybe offer some working advice?
Could all this be related to TMS?
"In TMS, pain symptoms are caused by mild oxygen deprivation via the autonomic nervous system, as a result of repressed emotions and psycho-social stress." http://www.tmswiki.org/ppd/An_Introduction_to_TMS
Hi omnipleasant.me.
Deletei find that when i do some vigorous yoga, particularly a) "spontaneous yoga, a.k.a. original Kripalu yoga", in which i allow the body's "own wisdom" to generate the precise alignment and often strange asana/posture following some strong breathing practices, or in b) "yin yoga" that involves very long holds in a specific asana, that a long-held "story" manifested, often one that i had not had for many years.
These stories bore no correlation to anything that i was currently doing, or was involved with, but were totally "serendipitous" and often involved some deep pain, emotion or story about something that had been experienced long before.
By using the Sedona method, or Byron Katie's "The Work", (Plz see blogpost "Surrendering the 'I', letting go of suffering") or just saying "yes, yes" or "let go, let go", the stories were "released" and a deeper, sweeter space manifested. If the story was a particularly problematic one, it might remanifest in a weaker form, and fully released then; often it vanished completely.
i also found Rolfing, which is highly-focused, deep tissue massage/"work", to be very valuable in the same way in places i would never have been able, or knowledgeable enough, to access myself. Traditional deep tissue massage was also very useful.
This is not unique to these approaches, they are just the ones i used...many other physical practices presumably work in the same way as the blogpost discussed.
i don't know the TMS work or the relation to "mild oxygen deprivation vis the autonomic nervous system...". It may be true, but i am not familiar w/that approach.
Trust this is useful.
stillness
Gary, My understanding is that you did not have a DNoS experience, true?
ReplyDeleteHi Anonymous.
DeleteNo. i had periods of confusion over not knowing what to do next, anxiety over just not knowing what might result if i did lose my self-referential narrative and "I" (i thought i might die, literally), and periods of deep frustration that all of the hours were not going to be successful, but no DNoS.
i did a lot of physical practice daily, did tons of daily self-inquiry, had very demanding jobs, a family, lots of travel, and the process occurred gradually over many years, so it just didn't happen.
It really seems to confirm the physical practice and self-inquiry model. i also didn't know anything about DNoS, despite being raised a fundamental Christian w/the usual guilt and blame ethos, so there was no "scripting".
stillness
Hi Anonymous.
DeleteAn additional point, as many folk go around describing their DNoS experiences from some time ago in great detail is that the descriptions are almost certainly not correct. The research in the blogpost "Traumatic memories feel true but are always changing" @ http://happinessbeyondthought.blogspot.com/2012/01/traumatic-memories-feel-true-but-are.html, is that even w/events as seemingly seared into our consciousness as 9/11 or the Lady Di events, our ability to recall "how we felt" at that time, is very poor.
Just one year after 9/11, only 42% of the folk in the study could accurately report what they earlier had said they felt at the time of the event. What they reported was heavily biased by how they were feeling, in general, now, rather than when the event occurred.
stillness
Wonderful as ever, Gary! Vital topic!! Thank you!!! (from Andy in Spokane)
ReplyDeleteHi Gary,
ReplyDeleteIt's funny how sometimes we "stumble" upon something that seems to be exactly what we need or are experiencing. It occurred to me yesterday that I have stalled my spiritual practice precisely because I am afraid of losing "myself," (the ego), that I am very attached to it, and that I may perhaps feel lost without it. While I didn't experience the "Dark Night of the Soul," I did experience an overwhelming sense of sadness in which I cried tears of sadness all day. I was a mess. (My husband and I just 2 weeks ago returned from a trip spent at Ramana Maharshi's Ashram in Tiruvannamalai, and he told me to perhaps expect some "stuff" to come up. As he put it, "It's a real game-changer.") I know that all kinds of ego-related thoughts seem to enter and challenge its existence...and mine certainly doesn't seem to want to go down without a fight! Reading that others also feel this "loss of your personal self" make me feel better. Right now I'm trying to use several different methods such as b and d (see your article above), and also sitting in the sadness, accepting it and letting it be. I'm thankful that it occurred and now, hopefully, I can confront it.
Hi Marilyn
DeleteGreat that you and your husband had the opportunity to get to Ramanasramam. It was very important for me to put everything about Ramana's life "in a place" and context. Sitting in Virupaksha Cave and Skandashram where Ramana sat and then walking on the paths he took down to the Old Hall where he answered folks' questions and sat in silence for decades was a great experience. On my latest trip i had "experiences" in both the Old Hall and in Virupaksha Cave (described in blogpost "Virupaksha Cave - Four Hour Shakti Experience"), which were totally unexpected.
In addition to b. and d. for what to do, i would strongly encourage you to use the approaches described in the blogpost "Surrendering the 'I', letting go of suffering". In addition to "accepting" and "letting it be", you can take a more active role and move "towards" and "into" the sadness and use these approaches to see that you can in fact just "let go, let go, let go" of the sadness, or any fear, story, or belief that you have. It is rooted in psychology, and surprisingly it works.
stillness and surrender
Marilyn - Your personality will remain and may even brighten...it probably already has if and when you are able to be "unselfconscious" and spontaneous. Waking up is infinitely passive. If there is something about "Marilyn" that you like and others love, none of that will diminish a whit. Ramana referred to the separate inside self as the "I thought." Like all thoughts, it comes and goes throughout the day. But your capacity to love and even your capacity to respect your own virtues will not decrease. Others, including Nisargadatta refer to "The Witness" as a stage in the process. For my dear friend Gary, that stage appeared abruptly. For others, it arrives gradually -- a sudden shift is not a requirement. Moreover, whether you "know it" or not, you are well down the path. You might find it useful to chuck the whole "awakening thing" for awhile and "go back" to being "plain ol' Marilyn." It's kind of like letting the subconscious do a little work on this...there will be no backsliding. Awakening is all about freedom, the ego is all about contraction and resistance. But the scaffolding of personality is deeply wired -- your "progress" is simply letting it ride in the back seat, as your consciousness expands. Marilyn is a fine passenger, when needed she steps up. Nothing that you like about her will diminish. It's just that "what you like about people" tends to be much more about compassion than possessions. Shed no tears of fear that the best of you will disappear. (Andy in Spokane)
DeleteDear Andy in Spokane,
DeleteThank you so much for taking the time to write such a thoughtful, intelligent and helpful response. It made me feel so much better. It is just as you said...nothing has diminished with the ego lessening...no more tears have been shed. And there have been many days in which I have been very happy in the back seat!
With much appreciation,
Marilyn
Dear Gary,
DeleteThank you so much for your wonderful reply. I am taking you up on your further suggestions and am enjoying the readings. Your blog is a wonderful forum. You are doing great work.
With gratitude,
Marilyn
Gary: Great article. I have only encountered one person who suffered from "depersonalization disorder." He reported that after trying a meditation exercise he heard about, his personal self disappeared, and this disappearance was, from his viewpoint, "horrifying." He reported feeling cut off from human existence and the usual feelings of "normal" people, and wanted nothing more than to get his old sense of selfhood back. Many people familiar with the young man's story refused to believe his account, but because I had read Suzanne Segal's story, I was sure that this fellow had experienced the same sort of thing as Segal. Not knowing what else to suggest I advised physical exercise and self-inquiry, and you seem to agree with that sort of advice. I'm glad to hear that Britton and others are investigating this sort of phenomena because, although Segal's type of experience is rare, it can be devastating to those people who are unlucky enough to experience it.
ReplyDeleteHi Bob. Great that you found it useful. Many folk go through some rough spots as they deconstruct the "I/ego". As i say in the post, the key is to realize that it is not necessarily "psychopathological", which can lock one into being an ego/I strongly identified with, and experiencing, the suffering.
DeleteThere is no doubt that some folk experience great suffering in Dark Night of the Soul, but as you advised, physical exercise and self-inquiry, as well as changing the understanding and context of the experience, can decrease the severity considerably, and get one through it and into a blissful Presence and Stillness beyond. Losing one's ego/I does not have to lead to suffering; it can lead to unimaginable freedom and bliss. stillness
Thanks for this article. I thought I was eternally damned. Very helpful..
ReplyDeleteHi Anonymous. Great that you found it helpful. The cloud of misinformation and misconception on this topic is the real problem. stillness
DeleteThanks Gary, very timely and helpful. I didn't know what was wrong but I knew something wasn't right. I knew it wasn't simple depression. So I searched and and found Jeannie Zandi's article and it resonated soundly. I have since found a few helpful articles and videos which essentially suggest you sit with it and know that you'll be ok. Some though suggest it is a precurser to enlightenment which to my mind is a stretch. Your article is very helpful because it gives more specific direction. I will inquire more and try to get some sort of yoga practice going. Thanks, Bill C
ReplyDeleteHi Bill. Great that you found the post useful. It really is about setting context and understanding why/what has happened and then realizing that there are things that can be done to ameliorate it. Some have suggested that it is necessary for "enlightenment", but that is just not correct. Traditions focused on awakening, like Rinzai Zen Buddhism, do not have these severe, lengthy DNoS episodes. Best w/the yoga practice. There is a youTube video on the posture flows used in this work, there is more in Happiness Beyond Thought, and there are many different yoga practices to choose from that are widely available. stillness
DeleteHey Gary
DeleteI wrote the above comment 2 years ago and did indeed learn to Inquire. It has been a very rewarding journey and because the inquiry works it has been self sustaining. Practically speaking there are long periods of stillness now and no worry about persistence or end game strategies. I am just going with it now. It almost feels like it is out of my control, a free falling sort of experience. Anyhow i just wanted to check in. Thanks.
Hi Bill,
DeleteGreat that you have had such wonderful results from inquiry. The "long periods of stillness" and "going with it" are the consistent report when folk are diligent and persistent in the work.
Similarly, typically in the later stages of the work, the consistent report is this feeling "like it is out of my control". As the brain accumulates enough data points, and recognizes the much superior solution which is possible, it begins making the modifications to move to that solution.
Simultaneously, as the ego/I is being deconstructed, it has less and less ability to "do" anything. The balance of these two eventually shifts strongly towards the brain doing the process "all by itself", which is increasingly apparent.
Great work on your part - a tribute to your diligence and persistence.
stillness
gary
Thank you Gary but I think it is really a tribute to Grace. I sometimes consider how lucky I have been to have come across this path. I pondered recently on the good fortune to have come across the youtube videos on Non Duality. I have slowly evolved from primarily being focused on neo advaita speakers to the more traditional speakers. I have developed an interest in Emptiness and come to love Silence. How did an orphan/ foster child addict from Boston come to this??? It doesn't seem possible that I ended up here, tasting freedom, when so many others suffer in the dark. Awareness is light to the darkness. Thanks for the support.
DeleteHi Who,
DeleteYes, it is all about Grace. my family was Appalachian coal miners , my grandfather died in a rock crusher, my mother was septic with me which left her unable to have children which was “my fault”, my bedroom until i left home was in a small apartment over a chlorine water-treatment facility, my high school principal told my parents “Gary will never amount to anything”, i spent 5 years in a submarine so I could go to college and nearly died underwater, my drinking resulted in my crawling down a highway, my hand was mangled in a garage door opener, etc.
Sometimes all one can do is just bow down, eyes filled w/tears, in the deepest wonder and appreciation that such a thing would ever manifest for “me”. Nothing could have been more unlikely.
It is all about Grace.
I'm shaking my head in awe right now because of what you two have come out of. Unbelievable! I have heard quite often that we should be grateful for our suffering/thank our demons (something like that). But not everyone finds their way out like you two did. I am so glad that you both did! Your stories are a true inspiration to me. From the bottom of my heart, I thank you for sharing them.
Delete(P.S. Bill, are you still in the Boston area? My husband and I live in Stoughton, MA.)
Gary,
ReplyDeleteYou say: There is also a danger of "scripting" in DNoS. Some teachers have insisted that DNoS is an essential part of the awakening process. If folk are told that enough times, it will become "scripted in" and will more likely manifest.
What is your reasoning explaining this way of scripting, what proof do you have that it actually works as you suggest? I find that's quite a bold statement to just pop in there. If that were true that it works in that way, it's something to be taken quite seriously. It might even be used positively then.
Thx for writing on the subject, it seems important.
-Chris
Hi Chris,
DeleteRe scripting on DNoS, it is useful to remember that DNoS is a poem of a 16th Century Catholic mystic.
It is fascinating that it is much talked about by some 21st century practitioners of a Buddhist meditation in the nominally Judeo-Christian US, when it is rarely talked about classically in traditional Buddhism.
In Rinzai Zen Buddhism in which i spent much time in two different lineages, and on which i am giving Dharma talks @ our regional zendo, it just wasn't/isn't something that ever came up.
i get at least every month, some folk quoting that one particular teacher and asking about that same scripting statement and if it's true, how much of a problem is it, and what can be done about it, and did I have one?
One folk i worked with had a big awakening experience when we met, followed by other openings. we worked together for a while and she progressed well. As the Universe would have it, she developed friends in the DNoS community. Then she began arguing strongly about the importance of maintaining her suffering.
Despite months of discussion on suffering being unnecessary, she would not be deterred. i gave her specific practices to avoid DNoS. She pushed me away, and refusing to do the practices, had her own DNoS (albeit short) as desired, and promptly reported it to her DNoS friends.
i have found nothing in any literature of any credible awakening tradition that indicates that DNoS is necessary. IME, the Judeo/Christian religion (in which i was raised) supports suffering in their practices, and awakening (and nonduality) is strongly discouraged, to the point of heresy. It is no surprise that DNoS manifested there.
Trust this is useful.
stillness
Interesting. Thx for the reply Gary.
ReplyDeleteTalking from my own experience, I have seen that certain suffering and the following (short!) periods of not having interest periods of time has really helped me lose self-referential stuff, faster and clearer than any kind of meditation.
There’s really something to these experiences, but the use of them is not in themselves. They should be desired only for the effect they have upon “recovering”.
Take Meister Eckhart as an example. If I understand correctly, Eckhart was quite a revolutionary in his time and independent thinker. He would not have said something like this if he had not confirmed it in his own experience.
"Now take note, all thoughtful creatures: the swiftest animal that bears you to perfection is suffering. Suffering is bitter as gall, but to have suffered is honey-sweet. Nothing disfigures the body before men so much as suffering, and yet nothing beautifies the soul before God so much as to have suffered."
Nisargadatta apparently said:
“There are always moments when one feels empty and estranged. Such moments are most desirable for it means the soul had cast its moorings and is sailing for distant places. This is detachment -- when the old is over and the new has not yet come. If you are afraid, the state may be distressing; but there is really nothing to be afraid of. Remember the instruction: whatever you come across -- go beyond.”
I think the point is to recognize some of these periods may be very valuable, but they are valuable only because they purify you. You feel lighter and freer afterwards. If that doesn’t happen then it’s not the kind of experience John of the Cross, Eckhart and others talked about.
You say as the Universe would have it the woman you worked with developed friends in the DNoS community. Maybe she got those friends because it was necessary for her to go through such an experience? I’ve picked up a book, seemingly on chance that described the archetypes/experiences I would have in the following 5 months in much detail. These things seem to happen. As you said in your book on methods, some stuff just seems to come out of nowhere but seems like confirmation on the validity of the path.
What was her motivation on arguing for suffering? Did she feel her DNoS was useful for elimination of future suffering? And did she tell you what affect her own short DNoS had for her? Maybe she’s better off now. Some form of DNoS might not have been asked of/for you, but this path seems quite personal and it’s worth recognizing that it might really asked of/for other people. Eckhart even says it’s the “swiftest animal”.
My general attitude when having these experiences: Interesting, what is this? Might this experience support awakening and the end of suffering? Has anyone else had a similar experience and did it turn out positively for them? Let’s listen and feel what it has to say, but not make too much of a big deal out of it because I don’t know for sure what it is exactly. It might be over the next day or week. If it’s not over soon and I have reason to suspect it might be harmful, I’ll consult teachers and doctors, just to make sure.
-Chris
Hi Chris,
DeleteFrom the standpoint of why/how and the value of different types of experiences, i am probably one of the strongest proponents of "no free will" and "no control", as it was obvious when the page turned that there was no one there to have free will or be in control. There are many blogposts and youTube videos "Everything is Predetermined: Einstein and Ramana Maharshi" @ http://youtu.be/XqLDWyk1uLQ and "Predestination, control, free will and the illusion of time" @ http://youtu.be/kYkf7L0oY84.
Given that, whatever your, or anyone else's experience of "suffering" is and whether it is useful or not is out of your and their control. Arguing "for" suffering, as you are doing, only reflects your experience, and what you've selectively read of others'. Buddha's great efforts and teachings that many have found useful as ways to reduce suffering were arguably, out of his control.
By my late 20s, i had had a great deal of suffering, and found that i didn't like it, and it didn't really "purify" me (which was a fundamental tenet of my fundamental Christian upbringing), so i set out to end it, however i could.
By the grace of the Universe, i found that, through Ramana Maharshi's teaching and that of my Zen Buddhist teachers, that i could do that. And, for whatever reason, i have been telling folk of my experiences, and they will find it useful or not, and it will be perfect, just as it is, however it is.
stillness
Hi Chris,
DeleteAs a postscript to this, the woman in the discussion, who was not identified, has gone public on social media that she was "abandoned", and suffered terribly as she had no support or practices to use and blamed "me" for her deep suffering, which is what she wanted so badly.
she has conveniently not reported that she was actually seeking the suffering as can be documented in email conversations.
When i challenged her, privately, on her social media post saying it was not what happened, she agreed, and said she was still suffering and thanked me for all i had done for her.
i would add that it isn't really "suffering" if you're trying to get it...that's masochism. The powerful "suffering" which i strongly agree is critical to catalyze and drive transformation is something you really don't want and it goes on for a long time totally out of your control. i had that. They're different.
stillness
Gary, you addressed your DNOS reply to "Chris" to me but I did not write the comment on 12/8 at 6:41 AM. It was some other "Chris." I replied to you but from a different perspective :-)
ReplyDeleteHi Chris (Marti). Disclaimer and earlier different perspective noted. As i work w/6 different Chrises now, i endeavored to respond to the sense of the comment in as "broad" a way as i could. i'm not even certain that the Chris on the latest DNoS comment/reply is one of them. Trust all is well w/you. Thanks for the interest, as always. stillness
Deletehello Gary, my name is Christopher L. i have come here, becuas i am not sure if what i am going through is dpdr. my story starts out about a year ago. i had an experience of a spiritual emergence. i didnt know what was going on, i went crazy, and didnt know where to turn, who to trust. i had found a book about cognitive therapy for mental health issues, which seemed to pluege me my entire life. it opened me to buddhism. i found i quickly took to the methods. eventually i had experienced many uppon many kudalini awakenings, i found myself able to see the world around me with a mystic view . eventually i was fully ingolfed in the voidness of the entire universe, and it was the most beautiful freeing experience, beyond description, there was nothing to go looking for, or anything to be. this experience seemed to have lasted for about a month, it is a little difficult to tell, because it was timeless. something happened one day that i can not explain. i had been sitting on the floor, and all of a sudden there was a flash of energy that struck my body. it got up from sitting, and started to abuse itself, and my voice started to curse everything. its hard to know why this happened, because it wasnt coming from my mind, and i had no control over my body. it was as though a phantom mind. it pulled me away from the tranquil state. i had immediatly started to suffer from the worst, never ending migrains, and it felt as though my flesh had been torn off my body, i was feeling a burning cold sensation all over my body, everything is filled with anxiety and confusion. is this what dpdr is like? i dont know who i am, where i am, or where there is light, i cant tell what kind of life im in. i try to live like i use to prior to my experience, but that doesnt feel right. idk what to do, everything feels dry, and void of joy. i feel guilt for being concerned for myself, because now there is fear. my experience feels like that of adam and eve. being cast out of paradise. i just want to return to the world in grace and love, but idk how
DeleteHi Christopher L.. What you described down to "i had been sitting..." are classical nondual awakening experiences for most folk. The psychology/psychiatry community, as it doesn't know or understand spiritual practices or results, classifies it as DPDR (Depersonalization Derealization" disorder. The heart of nondual awakening is to bring about an understanding that the "I" is just a program that runs in our brain that we can fairly easily begin to deconstruct, which gives us an improved operating system, IMHO.
ReplyDeleteThe part after "i had been sitting..." down to "...all over my body" is not something i have seen in nondual awakening, nor have i seen it in those cases of DNoS i have worked with. However, as my work is about self-inquiry and physical practice, which are virtual antidotes to DNoS, i really don't see the severe episodes others have reported. you might want to contact Willoughby Britton @ Brown University @ https://vivo.brown.edu/display/wbritton , mentioned in the post, to compare notes with her, as she is the foremost researcher in the US studying DNoS.
The rest of your report after "...all over my body" is also a typical report for nondual awakening. Much of the trauma that folk feel in nondual awakening is because they don't believe it is OK, or "natural", or "typical"...they have no one to work with them and everyone they see, and everything they've heard from others including friends, family, church, psychologists, etc, who haven't experienced it, believes it is a big problem.
As i don't know the particulars of your background, i don't know what exactly to give you to work with, but i would strongly encourage you to ask yourself "What is this that experiences this being cast out of paradise?", "Where is the one who experiences anxiety and confusion?", and "When is this one who feels void of joy?".
i would also encourage you to look @ your stories about this situation and apply the Byron Katie and Sedona approaches to letting go of these stories (blogpost "surrendering the "I", letting go of suffering" @ http://happinessbeyondthought.blogspot.com/2012/05/surrendering-i-letting-go-of-suffering.html.).
Also, strongly recommend you do some strong physical exercise, whatever appeals to you, as often as you can.
Let me know how you are doing. my e-mail address is on my website @ www.happiness-beyond-thought.com under "About".
stillness, love, peace and surrender
gary
Hi Gary, I've been involved in the Gita teachings of Sat Shree from http://www.satshree.org/teachings/gita-study/gita-study-transcriptions/
ReplyDeleteDejection is an important part of his teaching, from chapter one: "Dejection is when the soul of us, the consciousness of us, the core quality that we are, wakes up to its bondage. It becomes aware of its suffering, its inability to find fulfillment in its usual forms of fulfillment of our human life and it has a longing for something greater, something higher.
Like waking up from a deep sleep, you are so torpid and taken over in deep sleep, that waking up can be a struggle. So dejection is a process. It comes, it tries to awaken and then collapses. This process continues all the way up until the soul comes to the self and then the dejection that occurs beyond that point is of a different order."
What I understand from his teaching is that dejection also keeps occurring for people who are realized. There's not suffering of the usual kind "but there's still a tremendous amount to be with".
What I understand from you is that that's not your experience, when your system makes another shift of understanding, there's no experience of having to be with anything, there's just bliss. Is that correct? That beats having to go through a dejection process, haha.
I've tried "when am I" and "where am I" for a while half a year back and before that, but my system reacts badly, it keeps running the question and after a day or two it gets nauseous. I've picked it up again today and I can feel the energy of the question still active in my body after doing the meditation in the morning. I do 15 minutes asking when am I on the outbreath with meditation. I don't know if I'll turn nauseuous again, maybe this meditation technique really isn't for me. Or maybe I can do a very low amount of it, like ask it for a minute or two. Any idea or comment?
Thanks for the conversations :)
Chrisd
Hi Chrisd,
DeleteUp front, plz don't send active links to other folks' teachings. i just don't have bandwidth to validate them or even passively endorse them by having them here, and typically just delete the post because of this. yours was an exception as the rest of the comment is worthwhile for others.
What does he mean by "dejection"? That is a term that is rarely used in this context and there is always the possibility that it is a poor translation. This is what occurred with the Heart Sutra and the translation of "The Void", which has confused generations of Westerners and IMHO caused much suffering.
The awakening process is endless, IME, as the brain continues to improve the new Operating System and tweak it in response to very old stories arising and being resolved, new experiences and understandings manifesting, or new environmental challenges emerging. This is all out of our conscious awareness, or ability to affect it.
The feeling when those happen is a deep "yes" and a sweetness and lightness, almost certainly from a dopamine boost. It feels like something else has just slipped into place and the whole ecosystem is clearer and deeper.
It is interesting to look at why we might have evolved this dopamine boost when a deeply held painful residual memory is released as a "reward". It is the farthest thing from "dejection", whatever might be meant by that.
On the self-inquiry nausea, that is not a common report. It might only arise if you beat and beat on it like a mantra trying to force it, or if someone drives you into it. Some of the self-inquiry "interrogators" operate that way, but that's not what i do. It is really an "inquiry", trying to understand something with great curiosity and interest while feeling what is happening when it is asked each time.
If it is still too much for you, put it in an app on your smartphone 5 to 7 times a day and then stop for a minute or two and do the inquiry then go back to what you were doing. This has disproportionate "data value" for the brain which works on the contrast between what you were doing and the stillness after the asking of the question.
stillness